ļ»æJohnny Morton - life beyond ptsd
35:03
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, life, mental health, clever, school, therapist, thought, evidence, talk, therapy, ptsd, compassionate, compassion, feel, podcast, recognise, theory, change, day, slow
SPEAKERS
Johnny, Hannah
Hannah
Welcome to Happily Ever After, the podcast where we talk about life's big stories from breakups and breakdowns to icky secrets, and happy endings. It's the stuff that makes us human. I'm your host, Hannah Harvey, I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at mumsdays.com. I'd be really grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also absolutely love hearing from you. So please do contact me through Instagram @mumsdays, MUMSDAYS with any of your stories. And any thoughts you might have on the episode or any questions. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
Hannah
Hello, and welcome to Happily Ever After. It's me, Hannah. And today I'm joined again by my therapist, Johnny Morton. Hello, Johnny.
Johnny
Hi, How you doing?
Hannah
Good. Thank you for sticking around. Because like last week, we were talking about, I guess some of the issues you can have, so like PTSD, depression, anxiety, the difference between the two. And I guess, you know, once you've established that you've got these things, I kind of want to talk more about like, day to day, I guess, because it seems like we all sort of have something going on and things that are going, so say you've healed some of these things or the PTSD in the wounds we were talking about. But that's not to say it ever truly goes away.
Johnny
Yeah, that's a good point. So, I think the thing that goes away, the PTSD symptoms, so nightmares, dreams, flashbacks, intrusive thoughts, avoidance, things like that.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
But the fact that you went through a trauma doesn't go away. And that's why it's very important that you're able to learn how to self soothe later on in life, because you will be reminded of it and traumas aren't pleasant things to go through. So yeah, it's an interesting point. So yeah, the symptoms of PTSD, will die away and go away. But actually, the trauma itself will be with you forever.
Hannah
Like some of this stuff, for me, personally, was to do with around this idea of self belief and what I believed about myself. So there's a few things that we talked about, like you've got, what do you call it? Something A?
Johnny
Oh, theory A
Hannah
Theory A.
Johnny
Okay. Yeah. So this is just something we do to help clients think about things from a different perspective. So we'll often look at their theory A, which is what they think and believe about themselves. So for example, people might think that they're unlovable or that they're worthless, or that they're a failure, which are pretty harsh statements to make about oneself.
Hannah
I was about to say that's a pretty standard and you're like that's really horrible.
Johnny
So all the yeah, and of course, the textbooks will always say those things. You know, people believe they're hopeless, people believe they're unlovable, people think they're a failure, etc. And it's never quite as simple as that. Because...
Hannah
And not all the time.
Johnny
No, exactly. And they're not always cognitions. So sometimes, it's just a feeling you have. So often, if you go out for a job interview, you might feel that you're not clever enough. It's not necessarily a thought you believe in, but it's something that you might feel. So, theory A is basically when we're looking at, you know, people's beliefs about themselves, or schema, as we call it in psychology. Theory A is what they believe. And it's often way off the mark, and very, based around experiences and emotions, rather than based on evidence. So, I'll give you an example. So when I went from primary school, to middle school, I just suddenly started to believe that I wasn't clever enough. Now I had to pass an exam to get into that school. So I wasn't paying any attention to the evidence that I was clever enough, I must have been because I got in. But because of the experience I was having, I was learning that I wasn't clever enough. And that's two different things. It's not factual. But if you believe it, it can have a massive impact on the way you live your life. So if I believed I was an attractive, I would never speak to girls. And if I'd never spoken to girls, then I never would have got married, so on and so forth. So it can have a huge impact on your life, how you think about yourself.
Hannah
Yeah. So, one of mine that we sort of looked at, I talked about it in the book and stuff, so it's not like I'm having a free therapy session. Although I am. One of mine was that I'm a bad person.
Johnny
Yeah.
Hannah
Like I felt like so for example, I stole someone's boyfriend at school.
Johnny
Right.
Hannah
And that, when they stole it was very loose, like we went on one day and whatever, I did the wrong thing, I made a mistake. And I paid, the repercussions for that were quite huge. And I got completely ostracised. I mean, you know the story from the year group, and no one was allowed to speak to me. And so from that point on, I was like, I absolutely deserve what I got, but from now on I'm never gonna let that happen again. And make sure that I always fit in, that people always like me.
Johnny
Right.
Hannah
Because I'm a bad person.
Johnny
Right. So when I sit and here that I know you're not a bad person, I know that you made a mistake.
Hannah
And I know that too, which is weird that you can think this.
Johnny
But I bet you sometimes you feel like you're a bad person.
Hannah
Yeah. Even if it's underlying everything, and I don't really notice it, there'll be something in there being like...
Johnny
Okay, so here's an example. So logically, I know, I must be clever enough. I certainly don't think I'm Einstein. I know people who are far wiser and cleverer than I am. But I now as an adult, believe I'm clever enough. When I was a young lad, I didn't believe that, okay. But that still rears its head. So I've been a little anxious today about speaking to you, because this is being recorded, there are going to then be around forever more than people are going to be able to hear it. And so that little voice in my head that started to grow, when I was younger, that believed I wasn't clever enough, speaks up and says, you're not clever enough, what if you make a mistake? What if this is the day, on Hannah's podcast, that everyone realises you're a fraud, and you don't know what you're talking about, and you're a crap therapist. So
Johnny
that is something that was born through the experiences I was having. But the evidence tells me that I'm clever enough. So yeah, I can logically know that I am. But in situations like today, or if I must speak in front of students at Newcastle University, for example, I feel anxious, and I feel anxious because that little voice is suggesting that I'm not clever enough. Not that it's true or real. But because it was something that I started to believe when I was a younger person, and I believed in that for a long time, I believed that until I probably hit around 30. And that got in the way of me living my life, because I would avoid doing academic things. And if I was avoiding doing academic things, then I wasn't progressing in my life in the way I wanted to, etc. So it can have a huge impact. So for you, thinking you're a bad person, if that lead to you then trying to please people all the time. Well, that's tiring.
Hannah
But also, when you're pleasing people all the time you feel like you might be then manipulating them? So that then reinforces this thing that like, oh, I'm just, I don't even know whats up or down anymore.I can't tell if I'm a nice person or I'm just manipulating everybody, cuz I'm a bad person.
Johnny
Right, yeah. So of course, if you believe it, that's your worldview. And so you're going to look for evidence that backs it up. And so you see people pleasing as manipulation. Whereas an objective viewpoint would see it just as people pleasing. It's not manipulation. You're desperately wanting people to like you, because you don't like yourself. So you're seeking validation through others. And that's never helpful thing to do. Like I said earlier, you know, you've the most intimate relationship you're ever going to have is with yourself. So you need to be nice to yourself, and you need to treat yourself fairly, and you need to really look after you. I'm not sure that's embedded within British culture, either. I think, certainly growing up if, you know, we considered the things that we were good at and said that out loud that was seen as boastful or big headed. But actually, there's nothing wrong with a balanced view. I don't need any help telling you what I'm crap at. But I need a little bit of help telling you what I'm good at. And I think that's throughout Western society. And I don't think social media helps either because we find that we end up comparing ourselves to things that aren't even real.
Hannah
Yeah. A snapshot, everything looks great. So people will message me and be like, wow, everything looks like it's going so well. And in my day to day, I'm like, oooh...
Johnny
Well, look, just, I don't know if anyone's seen it. But the David Beckham documentary on Netflix is a perfect example of this. You look at a photo of David Beckham standing up in some budgie smugglers in the Mediterranean looking like, you know, he owns the world. And then you see, the guy's got some mental health problems of his own. He went through a really difficult time, he was definitely depressed for a period of his life. But that's not what's portrayed. Look, I see people from all walks of life, and everyone's got shit going on.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
Life's tough.
Hannah
It is. So on a day to day... I mean this, I made compassion my word for the year and it's really fucking hard.
Johnny
Oh it's really hard especially if you've never been taught it.
Hannah
To me when, because you gave me that massive workbook to finish, but like the first section asks you to write down your negative associations with the word compassion. And for me, I'm like, it's laziness, it's self indulgent. It's like, for me, I'll probably be like, if I'm going to do something nice for me, I'll sit around eating crap and watch telly which isn't compassion?
Johnny
No.
Hannah
Like, it's just such a muddled thing, I just don't think we've properly understand what it is.
Johnny
Yeah, you're right, I think it's important to define it. But if you think about the people who've you've had in your life, and it doesn't necessarily mean real people, even people in books, or characters in movies, the ones that you really admire are often very, very compassionate people.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
And a little trick I use is to sometimes think, well, how would I treat somebody I'm responsible for? So how would I treat my daughter, Poppy? If she was in this situation? It's often very different to how I'm treating myself. It's even just some of the words you use. Like, if you hear me like sometimes speaking to myself, you know, I can call myself some pretty terrible things. So it's about awareness and understanding that you're not very good at being self compassionate. It's about defining what compassion is. And then just trying, as best as you can to make a difference in that area of your life.
Hannah
Yeah. And I feel like when I come and see you now, it's like a lesson in, these are the situations I've dealt with this week, I felt like I've done it badly, or this month. Please give me a compassionate view on this.
Johnny
Right and sometimes you will have done things badly. So this isn't about changing negatives for positives. It's about getting balance. So you know, I'm never going to advocate that you look in the mirror in the morning, call yourself a tiger and strut out of the house, right?
Hannah
Which is what I do every morning.
Johnny
Yeah, of course. Me too.
Johnny
But you know, this is about balance. And if you've been uncompassionate, towards yourself, there's probably a lack of balance there. So it's about acknowledging the stuff you're good at. If you're giving yourself a hard time about things that you're not so good at, or things that you might have failed at, well, then, that's where you're gonna get stuck in the negative. But life isn't like that. There are things that you're good at, and there are things that you need to work on. And I know it's a bit of a cliche, but you know, celebrate failure, it's, it's a lesson. If you don't learn from failure, then that's foolish, according to Einstein. But if you don't experience failure, then you're never going to learn and life's about learning. So I know that I'm not the finished article as a therapist, and I know that I never will be. But that's alright. Because I'm good enough. And I know that if I take that stance, I'm going to be more useful to my clients, rather than believing that I know everything and that I'm the finished article, because I don't.
Hannah
You don't need to tell me.
Hannah
Yeah. That's really interesting, because I've been struggling with this idea that I want to do more stuff to help people, going through a divorce, for example, and more yoga type tools and tricks and for kind of calming down the nervous system, but then part of me is like, who the fuck am I to go and try and help anybody else when I'm still struggling.
Johnny
Oh, well, you're probably the best person to help because you're still struggling.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
But we must draw a line because, unfortunately, in the world of psychology, there are people out there that because they've struggled think that's enough. So you've got to be very careful. Because just because you've struggled, that doesn't mean you can necessarily help someone tackle their own PTSD. It's about recognising where you draw the line. But there's huge amounts of good come from yoga practice, for example, and help people be mindful in the moment which we talked about last time. So yeah. Back to that word, compassion. It's just really, really important. And I think nobody would argue with that. In terms of being compassionate towards others. It's really helpful. People respond well to it. Well, you're a person, so learn how to do it for you. But you're right. It's not easy.
Hannah
Yeah, definitely. Going back to this whole idea of the theory A, one of the biggest tools for helping with understanding this compassionate side was creating the theory B.
Johnny
Theory B, yeah, absolutely. And that's what I was getting at, theory B isn't the opposite of theory A.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
It's not like I think I'm stupid theory B is I'm clever. That doesn't work.
Johnny
Positive affirmations.
Johnny
Right, yeah. So I'm, I always say I'm not a complementary behavioural therapist. Compliments don't work for people who have a belief about themselves. Goes over the head. So if somebody believes they're unattractive and someone says that pretty they think they're taking the piss. They don't see it as evidence that they might be pretty, right? So theory B is just an alternative explanation as to why somebody might believe theory A. So it might be, well, you grew up with parents who never practiced self compassion and so you never learned how to be self compassionate, that might be a theory B. Or you were sent to boarding school, and you were bullied and abused. And so that experience led you to believe that you were worthless. So the experience you had helps us make sense of why you believe it. But it isn't evidence to back up the belief, if that makes sense.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
But people don't people don't tend to look at evidence, when do people sit down and really think about themselves? Well they don't unless they're in therapy. And so if you're not doing that, you're not really thinking about what you're thinking about, you're not really thinking about whether or not that's evidence based, you tend to be thinking about the way you're feeling.
Hannah
Right now.
Johnny
Right, and the way we're feeling can be a red herring, so we can watch horror movies and feel terrified. But we're not at risk. It's just a movie. And the brain can do the same thing. So, you know, lots and lots of people think, in very creative ways. But they can also think, in very negative ways. So Tom Waits said a great thing. And I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like, I'm fearful of exercising my demons for my angels might leave as well. Well, we think in both positive and negative terms all of the time. And that's okay. We're human beings. Life is both positive and negative. We don't have to believe the thoughts just because we have them. They're just brain reflexes. They don't mean an awful lot.
Hannah
Yeah, it's something we were saying this week is your brain comes up with a certain thing. I can't think of an example right now. But you can kind of go okay, not today.
Johnny
Yeah, it's really I learned a really clever way of addressing it through my clinical supervisor, actually. And it's to kind of... don't suppress the thoughts because what happens if you try not to think of pink elephants, you think of pink elephants, right? And just don't engage them in conversation and debate. If the negative thought arrives, just say to it, if that's the gift you've got for me, I'm not accepting it. So let it in. Don't fight it, don't engage it. It's just a thought, doesn't mean anything.
Hannah
I mean easier said than done but...
Johnny
Yeah, yeah, you've got to practice all of these things. It's not easy. It sounds easy. A lot of things I say sound easy, but they're not. They take practice. And that's why therapy is helpful. Because it sets the building blocks that people can work on and continue to work on after therapy. We don't want clients to be in therapy for years and years. Because the therapy itself then becomes a crutch. We want to teach people to manage their own mental health. And continue to do so for the rest of their lives. Now, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to come and have top up sessions, it's always a good idea to do that, just as you would if you were looking after your physical health. But once you know what you're doing around the gym, you don't really need the personal trainer anymore. It's that sort of way of looking at it.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
It's not... my my accountant hates that model. I want rid of my clients? It's not good. But the hope is, is that they have a good experience. They recover. And then they go and tell everyone.
Hannah
On their podcast?
Johnny
Yeah. Or they get you on a podcast and tell you how great Blue Talking Therapies is right? Yeah.
Hannah
I only except people with podcasts going forward.
Johnny
And would you mind wearing this cap with Blue Talking Therapies on the front of it? Yeah, exactly.
Johnny
Definitely. Another thing that I've really found helpful recently, because sometimes I feel like I'm very good at prioritising other people's needs ahead of my own.
Johnny
So people pleasing?
Hannah
Oh, yeah that. You make it sound like an angel which I absolutely am not.
Johnny
Can I jump in on that? Because it's pretty interesting. So just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with putting other people's needs before your own. But if you continuously doing it to the detriment of yourself, it's not very healthy. So I'm always gonna put my daughter's needs in front of mine.
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
But if it was always to the detriment of me, then I would be negatively affected, and then that would make me not as good a dad.
Hannah
Yeah, yeah.
Johnny
So it's back to that thing, looking after yourself is really important.
Hannah
Yeah. Because that's what you said the other day was like, you need to make sure you're looking at need not should to look at yourself so that you can be the best version for your loved ones.
Johnny
Right and that's a really good point you've just made and actually a little tip or trick for people, which is, think a little bit about how you talk to yourself and you often tell yourself, you must, you should you have to, you better do this. Actually, sometimes just try and change those orders to the word need. What do you need? It's often very different from what you think. So when we're delivering clinical supervision, for example, I've learned to always ask, what do they need? And supervisees come into the sessions. And they often think they know what they want. They want to talk about this client, that client, the other, but maybe they need to talk about how they're feeling about their high caseload, or the fact that they're struggling with a client who's triggering some emotions in them. What about that? So it's really important to take a bit of time to think about what you need, rather than what your brain is telling you, which is often, should, must, have to.
Hannah
Yeah, because it's the shoulds that can leave you feeling the most guilty, I suppose, especially if you don't do them.
Johnny
Right, well, yeah. And I know, working with you that you will often go above and beyond for certain people. And that was to the detriment of yourself, but you did it because you thought you should do it. But actually, what you needed was to draw a line in the sand and say, actually, on this occasion, I'm not doing that, because I have these other priorities. And I'm looking after myself right now. And there's nothing wrong with that. Because by looking after yourself, you're going to be more effective for them moving forward. So I must look after me to be an effective therapist. If I don't look after me. I'm going to be a substandard therapist.
Hannah
Yeah. And I think if you've not been on a therapeutic journey that can sound really, like we are literally taught in school that you should be doing all these other things, rather than looking after ourselves.
Johnny
Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't remember how many GCSEs I had to sit something like 11. And I was told I had to pass them all. Like, why? I'm not interested in maths or chemistry, physics, couldn't care. I like books, and music, and food and wine and travelling. You don't have to be great at everything. And I think that's the thing, you know. There was a time in history where people did know everything about everything. Because there wasn't much to know about everything. But now just pick one topic, you could study it for a lifetime and never get to the bottom of it. So again, go easy on yourself, don't put these pressures on yourself that aren't necessarily going to get you to where you need to be or might hinder you. So that old fable the tortoise and the hare, if it was a fable, it's a tale anyway. But that's really important to me, to remember to slow down, be the tortoise, you'll get there anyway. There was a great study about people travelling to work, and people who risked their lives and the lives of others got to work about one and a half, two minutes quicker than those that just drove sensibly. Is it really worth it for two minutes? Probably not.
Hannah
No, and you're at a heightened, you know?
Johnny
Yeah, but we live life like that. Certainly in Western culture, everything's fast. Just driving a car teaches you to be fast. Slowing down is often what you need. And that's why people like holidays, because you slow down, and you have leisurely breakfasts, and go for little walks. I don't know about you but when I'm in Spain, for example, I walk slower.
Hannah
Just like meander along.
Johnny
Yeah, exactly. It's good for you. But you know, Western society doesn't promote that. It wants everything done yesterday, and with technology booming in the way that it is, that just pushes us to do everything much quicker. You know, back in the day, you could, you could probably have a meeting a day, you can have 10 meetings in a day because of Teams and Zoom and what have you. So there's another thing to consider in all of this, which again, proves why it's not easy. Because everything's against us, when it comes to self compassion. You've got to work hard at it. You've got to prioritise time, so that you can look after yourself properly. And that always requires slowing down in one way or the other. Which is back to your point, you wanted to be successful, like yesterday. That's just going to...
Hannah
But it stopped me even getting started, was the issue.
Johnny
Well it'll stop you getting there altogether. But if you slow like the tortoise, and you're considered compassionate, you'll get there and you'll win.
Hannah
Well, this is going to be something like podcast 85.
Johnny
Right.
Hannah
That's a lot of podcasts. And I would never have even got started if I was like, oh, I need to do 85 podcasts.
Johnny
Well, right. And you get to your destination quickly anyway, right? I remember turning 40 and speaking to my mate Fletch, and we were saying, you know, we got to 40 quite quickly. Can you imagine how quickly we're going to get the 50? Well, I'm celebrating my 50th this year. Well, I'm not celebrating it. It's happening.
Hannah
Celebrate it.
Johnny
I got here quickly anyway, so I don't need to rush.
Hannah
Yeah. That's a really nice, probably a nice way to end. That is one of the things another friend was telling me a few weeks ago like stop judging your progress. Being like I should be like so and so they did it by the time they were 25 it's like...
Johnny
Well comparing yourself negatively towards others, it's a big no, no, you're never going to win. Because it's impossible to compare yourself fairly. That wouldn't even be possible to create a biological experiment to fully compare two human beings. We're all deeply flawed. We're all great at some things. We're all terrible at other things. Life's a struggle. It is. But there is a healthy and unhealthy way to navigate that.
Hannah
Slow down.
Johnny
Slow down, that's really good. There's a great book, it's called In Praise of Slowness, I believe. I can't remember the author's name. But that's really cool. Talks about some towns in Italy that are refusing to have big corporations in their towns, and just using artisan independent, butchers, bakers, fishmongers, etc. So they're forcing slowness within these towns and villages, and they are, not that I've been there, but they sound a lot nicer to live in.
Hannah
But whenever you're in the Mediterranean, you see people like playing chess in the, you know, in the park, and you're like, ah, to live like that.
Johnny
Yeah, but how do you know that they're not speaking to me about their OCD or their PTSD? Right?
Hannah
Yeah, true.
Johnny
That's the thing, we're not short of clients, we never will be. And you know, the statistics say one in four people will struggle with their mental health. Well, those statistics are taken from people who are accessing help, not everybody accesses help, particularly men, they don't access help like women do. And...
Johnny
Are you noticing a shift in that though?
Johnny
Very slight, younger generations, younger generations are more open to it. But my generation and above tend to deal with it with alcohol or substances, I would say. That's really, I can see that in society. But my view is probably everyone at some point in their life will struggle with their mental health because they've got a brain.
Johnny
It's just part of life. And so learning how to be a little bit more mentally fit, I think is really, really important. And that's why I think anyone could benefit from a bit of evidence based therapy, to just help them think a little bit about how they think, how that affects them, and how their responses or behaviours to those emotions impacts. And yeah...
Hannah
Yeah.
Hannah
Do you notice a lot of kind of addictive behaviour patterns then, when we're dealing with...
Johnny
Oh yeah, it's just changing the way you feel through substances or food or whatever it might be. If I'm a bit pissed off, like, when I was a younger man, I would have just rang a mate gone out and had several pints, like, smoked a load of cigarettes. I don't drink as much anymore, certainly don't smoke anymore. So if I'm feeling down or pissed off, I'd probably grab some chocolate or sweets, and try and make myself feel a little bit better through that. But actually, that's just avoidance, you're avoiding the problem that you have. And so far better to identify what the problem is. And then try and help yourself tackle that. And often, it's a lot easier to tackle with the help of friends. So all these cliches are coming out today. But the reason these cliches are still around is because they're true and a problem shared is a problem halved is absolutely true. People who come and have therapy with me, who use their loved ones to help them with their homework tasks, etc. always do far better than the ones that keep it to themselves and try and muddle through alone. We're not, you know, no, man is an island, right? So we, there's nothing wrong with getting a helping hand.
Hannah
Yeah. Another thing we've been taught we're not meant to do.
Johnny
Yeah.
Hannah
Or at least, I don't know, maybe it's just me. But that's the feeling of you should be able to do it all on your own. Why can I not do this. I've got the resources I can, you know...
Hannah
Yeah.
Johnny
Yeah, because they don't teach psychology at schools, hence my other company, right? We do mental health training. Because people unfortunately think that they know what mental health is. But they really don't. And there are 1000s of people out there working in different industries, who get given the mental health lead badge. And when you break it down, they know very, very little, and to put all of that pressure on person on one person who's under qualified, under trained is unfair, and nobody benefits. So a great example of that is having a school counsellor. Now, there's nothing wrong with that. That's great. The counselling doesn't have an evidence base for treating any anxiety disorders. So maybe in addition to a school counsellor, you might have access to cognitive behavioural therapy. Or you might try and change the culture within your school so that mental health no longer has a stigma. It's not a taboo subject. It's talked about just like we talk about physical health. What Jamie Oliver did with kids food was just admirable, was amazing.
Johnny
We hope our other company can do the same with mental health in schools.
Hannah
What's it called?
Johnny
It's called Blue Mental Health Education and Training. And we're in partnership with a company called NTH solutions, which is an NHS subsidiary company. And all of the money goes back into NHS frontline. And what it does is it gives us a bit of a better platform than we had as just three therapists. We needed support ourselves, and we recognise that. And so we've devised a whole school approach to mental health training that we've converted into elearning. And the idea behind that is to change cultures, when again, that doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. So we're very focused on the process, not the destination. But if we can get schools to change the cultures and we have done successfully, Grange Park Primary School in Sunderland, fantastic little school in quite a deprived area in Sunderland, they took on the Blue whole school approach to mental health training, and it reduced their referrals to Cams services. And Ofsted recognised it and said their approach to mental health and wellbeing was excellent. So now is the time. But it's not a one... One approach doesn't work. Having a school counsellor is fantastic. But it's not enough.
Hannah
Yeah. And one for like when you think about some of these places.
Johnny
Yeah, hundreds of kids. And, you know, I feel sorry for the staff. Because they're teachers, they're not psychologists, and they don't want to be psychologists. And that's fair.
Hannah
And they're having to be social workers and all other things on top of...
Johnny
Right, yeah, they have to wear all these other hats. So if you do this training, then at the very least, it's going to give you confidence that you're doing the right thing for the children, because there's lots of initiatives within school that actually maintain the problem of anxiety unwittingly. So for example, they have a sometimes a card system where if a child's feeling a little bit anxious, they'll hold the card up, and they're then allow to leave. Well, what we'd want to promote there is, is compassion and a change of understanding about avoiding the anxious situation, we would want the child to stay within that anxious situation to learn that actually, the fear was unfounded, and that they're going to be okay. So schools have lots of initiatives, and some of them are brilliant. But some of them unfortunately, maintain the problem. And so they don't see any change. And also schools get hundreds and hundreds of emails and marketing, telephone calls, telling them that they need to do something about their mental health. And the majority of them aren't steeped in evidence. So a good example is mindfulness, which is a fantastic tool. It's brilliant for helping someone really appreciate the here and now. But as a standalone, it's not suitable for every child in the school, it can be dangerous, if one of those children have PTSD, mindfulness could trigger that. And if you don't have the resources within the school to manage that, well then all of a sudden, that becomes difficult. So schools don't know where to turn. And so it's back to that point, people think they know about mental health, but they really don't. I mean, I was a mental health nurse before I became a CBT therapist, and I thought I knew a huge amount about mental health. And I look back on it and realise how little I knew.
Hannah
And you were literally, that was your job.
Johnny
Frontline. Yeah.
Hannah
You have to be quite careful where you place your attention when it comes to this mental health stuff.
Johnny
Well, yeah, because if you, yeah, there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of people out there that call themselves life coaches and the likes. And you know, I'm not being down on them particularly. But for me, it's about evidence base. If I want to have an operation on my heart, then I want the surgeon to be using an evidence based approach that works. I don't want them to have experienced difficult heart problems themselves, and then give it a go. And that's being a little cynical, but there are people out there who make some very big claims about how they can help people with anxiety and depression. But they also have very, very big invoices at the end of the therapy. And if there's no, I'm not saying, we can't say it doesn't work, but if it hasn't got an evidence base and other therapeutic approaches such as CBT, EMDR, counselling for bereavement or depression, interpersonal therapy, you know, they're all evidence based therapies. Use them.
Johnny
Great.
Hannah
Done?
Hannah
Yeah, that's really good. Thanks ever so much. All right, then thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time for another episode of Happily Ever After with me, Hannah Harvey. It would be wonderful if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you have a friend who might enjoy this episode, please do pass it on. For anything else you can get in touch with me either through Instagram @mumsdays or my website, mumsdays.com.
