Hannah Harvey:
Welcome to Happily Ever After, the podcast where we talk about life's big stories from breakups and breakdowns to icky secrets and happy endings… It’s the stuff that makes us human.
I'm your host, Hannah Harvey, I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at mumsdays.com. I'd be really grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also absolutely love hearing from you. So please do contact me through Instagram at mums days — M-U-M-S-D-A-Y-S — with any of your stories and any thoughts you might have on the episode or any questions.
You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
Hello, and welcome to happily ever after. It's me, Hannah, and today I'm joined by Penny, who was on last week's episode. And we were talking all about divorce and how you, Penny, kind of dealt with that process, which was particularly… unpleasant… As it was for me. So I guess to start us on this next section, I really wanted to focus on like the positives. And like how you actually go from being this heartbroken person who's having to rebuild their life basically, to what, we hopefully both feel now that we're much better off for it.
Penny:
Yes.
Hannah:
So I guess we both went down like a similar route as we were going through divorce of just really trying to… um… I don't know about you, but for me, it was I'm trying to work out who I am. What do I actually want?
Penny:
Yeah.
Hannah:
You know, all these different things. I'm like, I don't even know who I am as an individual. I don't know what my identity is. Because I was married for so long. And I put my ex-husband on such a huge pedestal, I kind of became part of him, if that makes sense.
Penny:
Yeah, yeah. You know, I was married to somebody who’s very ambitious, and I'm quite easy-going. I'm quite. I kind of… Like so many different things. And I'll just sort of Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. But I've not ever been a 5 year, 10 Year plan kind of person. And so yeah, you can come out the other end thinking, “Oooh.” (Laughs)
Hannah Harvey 2:40
Which bit of it was me, and which bit of it was you? And yeah.
Penny 2:44
But I think the biggest thing that I've learned is not to judge the timeline that you're on, you know, I sat down with a friend and asked, you know, I spent nearly three years or it's been nearly four years this summer and what have I, you know, what have I done? And she made me kind of write down all the things that I done, it was like this two-page list.
Hannah Harvey 3:07
That's an incredible idea. Yeah.
Penny 3:09
And she was like, on, you know, you were in COVID, you were grieving your dad, as well as dealing with, you know, divorce admin, and you know, emptying the family home and your son was refusing to go to school. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, actually, that, that took a lot of energy. But all of those things are sort of behind me now. And it's also in the midst of that, I've also tried out loads of different things. And I think I've got to the end of last year, thinking “Oh God, nothing's actually stuck.”
Which was really unusual. For me, I've always been someone who you know, completes projects. Who gets the end of things, who… And I was just like, What am I doing?
Hannah Harvey 3:49
Do you mean from a career point of view? Or in terms of…
Penny 3:53
Just, you know, trying out where I want to go next, or, oh, you know, how I want to live. It's been a real try things out, but I'm trying to see that. And I have to say, I have now got a really exciting plan. And yeah…
Hannah:
Can you tell us about it?
Penny:
Yeah, but it's involved a lot of just trusting and trying and failing, which I don't think I've ever let myself do before.
Hannah Harvey 4:21
Yeah, I’m not a fan of failing. Yeah. It's so hard to be like, “Oh, I've tried this thing.” And when do you have to actually have to give it up and go, “That's not working.”
Penny 4:32
Yeah, yeah. No, I you know, I had little business ideas or, you know, I've been trying to finish my novel for forever. It's finished, but I can't get any energy… I just, well, actually what happened is I lost all interest in it. And so with that, I thought I'm gonna do ‘The Writer’s Way’ by Julia Cameron. Which is all about kind of recovering your creativity. And in doing so,I rediscovered art.
Hannah Harvey 4:59
YES! I've seen some of your stuff on Instagram, and they're so beautiful.
Penny 5:02
Thank you… And I've just I thought, oh gosh, I'm, I'm gonna have to let go of it [the novel – ED] I mean, honestly, we were talking about posts about blogging. And that's how we got to know each other, and writing’s always felt like my identity and felt huge, but I just found myself getting really blocked, and really just not enjoying it.
Like, I used to enjoy it, and maybe I'll come back to it, but, but art just became like… I think I blocked that years years ago and said, I'm not going to do it, but I'm enjoying it so much. And it gives me so much just joy and peace. But you know, I was really scratching my head about what I want to do next, and my friend said to me, listen to your heart.
And my heart just kept going: Art…
Hannah:
…Oh Wow.
Penny:
And it was just this thing. Part of the Artists Way was, you know, spend an hour a day doing something creative. And I thought: Well, I'm not really enjoying writing, I'll do something else. I'll just pick up this book and, you know, do a bit of sketching each day. And then it's just grown and grown. So actually, I've just found that I've got into Derby Uni to do a Fine Art degree.
Hannah:
Penny that’s amazing! Oh my God.
Penny:
I know. And I’m just like starting to panic. I was like, gosh,, my kids are going to be gone soon. I'm gonna feel really like empty nest. And what am I doing? And I was just like, you know, what, what would I really, really do you like that? You know what we do in this one precious life…
Hannah Harvey:
That’s so beautiful.
Yeah. And it's, you know what, I think it comes back to that compassion thing we were talking about last week. And giving ourselves permission to do the thing that we actually feel called to do.
Penny 6:50
Yeah, Because, I mean, classic thing in therapy is that when you hear should…
Hannah Harvey 6:56
SHOULD! Oh my god, the ‘I should’ voice. it's like, loud.
Penny 7:03
I should get a job with my writing… Well maybe I will In future. But it was becoming torture.
Hannah Harvey 7:15
Yeah, there’s just no point.
Penny 7:18
And it's accepting, I think, as well that you're I read something really beautiful recently. And I can't I'll have to paraphrase it. But it's like when you go into a healing journey, you create a persona to survive it. You have to kill that person and become something else.
Hannah:
[Wheeeze] What the hell?
Penny:
[Laughs] Yeah. You know, you think: “God I've been building, I've been building up and building…
Hannah:
C’mon! I’ve been doing all this healing!
Penny:
And then it's like…
Hannah:
That was actually a shell. And inside of a chrysalis or something, something beautiful is waiting to emerge.
Penny 8:01
Yeah. And it really suddenly…
Hannah:
That sounds really painful!
Penny:
Yeah, no, it's I think it's been the most painful part of my life, but then I don't think I've ever learned so much about myself about life. Yeah, and it's funny because I have a couple of really good friends at University who’ve been through, I'd say this kind of healing journey, not a divorce journey, but very different healing journeys. And they were kind of like waiting at the other end going: “Oooooh! Wheeey!”
You know, because I think a lot of people are just sleepwalking through life…
Hannah:
Yeeeeaaaah. Yeah!
Penny:
And then suddenly something universal goes, “Oh, no, I'm going to pick you up and put you over there and shake everything up!” And you have to go through this horrendous —at the time — journey. But then it kind of makes you see life so differently than…
Hannah Harvey 8:50
Yeah, it does. So can you look back on your…
Penny 8:54
…Been through that, and they're like, waiting in the wings going, okay, you've done it, but I'll help you through it. And…
Hannah Harvey 9:01
Then they have to also watch you make mistakes. And just be like… You're obviously gonna have to… There's no talking you through this. You're going to do this anyway.
Penny 9:15
Ridiculous mistakes.
Hannah Harvey 9:18
Like some… Yeah… Yeah. Based on hurt and pain, we might do things that a few weeks down the line, we're like: “Oh, why did I choose to do that?”
Penny 9:29
Yeah, yeah. Yeah… [Pause] Dating.
[Both burst out laughing]
Hannah Harvey 9:36
Okay, that's a nice segue onto something I wanted to ask you about because we've obviously talked about this in person a bit and see, what's it been like for you the whole dating process?
Penny 9:52
I think I have learned that everybody who has come into my life has come in for a reason. Relationships are mirrors.
Hannah Harvey 10:00
Here's a lesson… Will you learn it? Or will you repeat it with the next person?
Penny 10:08
Um, I mean, I did, I have what I've had a beautifully healing relationship for over a year with someone who had also come out of a really difficult situation… That I think it's going back to that… You heal, and you create somebody, this… this person to heal, and then that person…. Suddenly, you realise that you're not that person anymore. And that's been really difficult and sad, I think. Realising that.
But you know, I have absolutely no regrets. It was… I have had, you know, relationships that have just taught me so much about myself that I wouldn't have learned. Or, you know, about the world. You know? I spent loads more time outdoors, I got really into cycling, you know… That introduced me to new things that wouldn't have happened any other way. But then there’s also been times where I've gone, you know, gone headlong into things that weren't right, or, you know, thought I was more healed than I was, thought the other person was more healed than they were. Yeah.
And, I’m enjoying for the first time — not enjoying, I mean, enjoying at times, enjoying it, but being single and seeing that, and finally, a lot of sort of friends who have been single long term or been divorced, and now single said, you know, you'll get to that point where you see benefits, and you see, you're happy in it. And I've been waiting for that for a long time.
Hannah Harvey 11:41
So are you actively not dating right now?
Penny 11:47
No, no, because I keep turning the apps on and off, on and off. But I actually think I'm coming to the point of thinking, they are broken, they're not really working.
[Pause]
Hannah Harvey 12:01
Uuuuuugh…. The apps. I honestly think if you've been through any kind of trauma, they can be really detrimental.
Penny 12:12
Yeah, I know, and I think that it is damaging, really damaging to your mental health.
Hannah Harvey 12:19
Because like, all of the apps that we use, you know, Instagram or wherever else, they're all designed to be super addictive.
Penny:
Yeah.
Hannah:
So, you know, that's what they're playing on. First and foremost, is they want you, your eyeballs on their apps. So we're already being played before we've even like, gone on a date. Like your head’s already in a space that isn't your own. Almost it's like an addictive pattern that you're being fed into.
Penny 12:48
Yeah, no, I feel like hugely and…. Uh…
Hannah Harvey 12:52
And it's only after I said, ‘you know what, I'm done,’ that I've been able to look back and be like, oh, whoa, like, observing what I would do. If I was sad. Or if I was lonely. I'd be like, leaning on these things to make me feel better. Yeah, I didn't get a huge spikes of dopamine.
Penny 13:07
Yeah, no, definitely. I think they're really unhealthy, really.
Hannah Harvey
But then also, it's like, how else do you meet people? I think, you know, other people, obviously, have had great success with apps. So maybe it's just a certain type of person. It'd be addicts in the room,
Penny
You don’t really know what you're getting into. And it's a really sort of — I was going to say —unhinged. But it's a strange way to meet people where there's no connections. You know, previously… We've become very disconnected, and we can, normally you have previous relationships. You're the same score, or you've got a friend of a friend or you -
Both
Work together
Penny
-You know, there's some kind of social connection, but I think, in that, in this setting, people just behave in very, very odd ways. I think, also, when I first encountered them, it was sort of after COVID, and there was much more… People were just much more enthusiastic about actually meeting and talking to people and connecting with people. And I think there's a real sense now, that no one can really be that bothered. Or people who had lots of negative experiences and that's really impacting on them and making people very guarded or making people act in sort of really… Not very nice ways. So yeah, just doesn't, doesn't feel like a good place to be.
Hannah Harvey
So do you think you'll go back to it, or are you gonna start looking at other alternatives for
Penny
I did get myself a Pear Ring. Have you heard of those?
Hannah Harvey
What's a Pear Ring?
Penny
I've not got it on… But it's there like a turquoise ring. And the idea is that it's to signal that you are happy to talk to people in real life.
Hannah Harvey
Oh, sure. I am but do I need a ring? Oh, for dating purposes…
Penny
Yeah, so you know someone is single.
Hannah Harvey
Single, okay.
Penny
I’ve only ever seen one other person in my life wearing one [Laughs]
Hannah Harvey
…And was it another female, or…
Penny
My first instinct was just to cover my hand up! [Laughs] And go, Oh God, is this really…? And then I was like: “What am I doing?”
But I should have just said, oh how's it working for you? You know, but then….
Hannah Harvey
There’s still that pressure of like, oh god like, yeah IRL you're allowed to just rock up say hello to people and be normal. See if there's a connection. As soon as you add in it's a dating app, there's this pressure to be like, yeah, God, I'm going to have to reject, especially if you're a people pleaser. I think that could be a big part of it as well. I'm being like, I can't hurt their feelings. I can't say that I'm not into them. Because then that'll be awful.
Penny
Reeeaaally. Despite the fact that people constantly you know, message you, just disappear, ghost, vanish. Or match, and then don't want to talk… All this just weird, antisocial behaviour, but then, but it's…
Hannah Harvey
But that's because of the app. It’s designed to make you addicted - every swipe, swipe, swipe, and then you suddenly realise: Oh, just to see if they match with you, and you get the hit? Yes. And then when you do you're like, Oh, but I don't know, I don’t actually fancy them, or I don't want to speak to them, or I'm not sure about that red flag.
Penny
Yeah, it's like addictive.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah, it really, really is. It's like playing The Sims or something. And, you know, you're, you're reading through what people have put and be certain people who are like, telling you off before you've even swiped on them.
Penny
The shame that goes with it, you know, it's like, and also is the level of social comparison because you know, people only put their best version of themselves. It's so curated. And then you start to say, Oh, God, if I go to the gym, oh, God, am I happier? No, there's a lot of, you know, men with this, like good vibes only. I'm, you know, I'm a very positive person, I don't want the drama.
Hannah Harvey
If you're writing, “I don't want drama” in your profile, then you absolutely want drama. Yeah, yeah. That's my opinion. Whatever they're writing in it is what they want. Otherwise you wouldn't bring our attention to it.
Penny
Oh, it's just yeah, soul-destroying place to be actually.
Hannah Harvey
Awwww. Sorry to be such a downer on the apps.
Penny
No, no. I've come to that conclusion myself. And I'm hoping actually, I mean, I think I've always had quite an isolated career path. But yeah, the Art’s gonna get me out of it.
Hannah Harvey
Oh, my God, you're gonna get yourself a little toy boy! From uni.
Penny
But then I took it, it was funny actually took my daughter to the open day because she's 17. And they had like, a parent's student walk round and, and then they kind of staircase, and (they ask), “Do parents want to go and get coffee?” And we're gonna do a session with the students now. And so….
Hannah Harvey
Did your daughter have to go and get a coffee while -
Penny
I was like, oh, it's me. And I could see all these like, 18-year-old boys going….
Hannah Harvey
Haaaang on a minute!
Penny
Oh man. We want her!
Hannah Harvey
They want you. they'll love you.
Penny
But yeah, obviously. They did say that they have a lot of mature students and people in their 60s 70s going to do. So I'm hoping that it'll be a nice…
Hannah Harvey
I think it's gonna be incredible.
Penny
There’ll be different people, and creativity and a bit of a container. I think that's what I've discovered… [Drifts into inaudible, wistful reverie]
Hannah Harvey
[Forlorn sigh] You’re making me think, what do I need to do? You know, I'd love to get into. I want to be like Gillian Anderson on Sex Education. I don't know why. It's basically whatever my life is doing at the moment. That's what I want to do. So when I started out blogging, I was pregnant. So I was like, my blog will always be about pregnancy. Yeah, obviously, as soon as you've got a baby, like, I don't give a shit about pregnancy anymore. So then it becomes about the newborn. And then about the marriage and then about the divorce.
Penny
Yeah, yeah. Now, I couldn't bring myself to go back to mine. But I've kept writing about things on Instagram. Yeah.
Hannah Harvey
Lovely. So tips for moving on. What do we think?
Penny
Um, yeah. Don't judge your timelines. Let yourself fail. Let yourself try things. I think, you know, there was a particularly jarring dating experience at the end of last year, but it did force me to go right.
I really, really want to think about what I want… I looked at volunteering. I've got a really exciting — Well, I'm not allowed to talk about it yet — but really exciting volunteering role coming up, and which I never would have considered, and I had this experience last year that just really derailed me. And I have also got the art. And I've just thought, right, yeah, no, so it's, but I did spend a lot of time… I did a cookery course, and I thought, why am I doing this? I think that was to heal the fact that I had. I've always loved cooking, but after the divorce, it became just, I don't know, as if something in my head just went POFF.
Hannah Harvey
That has happened to me too. Yeah, I completely stopped being able to cook. I think it became a connection between feeling like, I was just a live-in nanny and chef. And yeah, so I was like, I'm not cooking for anybody. And it wasn't until I met the guy that I'm with now that I've actually started to cook again. Yeah, yeah, I got a Le Creuset - this beautiful little pink colour Le Creuset pot from my brother last year for my 40th. And I didn't use it until I'd met this guy. And I was finally like, I feel safe to actually, yeah, want to make him something without then feeling like, I'm just becoming anesthetised to it, or whatever the word is again.
Penny
Yeah, there was definitely not. And there was a real sense of comparison between both things, especially because I'm vegetarian and their Dad's a carnivore. You know, it's, it was a real sense of comparison. Am I feeding them the right things or not…
Hannah Harvey
Is this good enough? Is this gonna be okay?
Penny
Yeah… And supermarkets became really stressful. But anyway, let's move on. That's what we do. But yeah, so the cooking course was really healing.
Hannah Harvey
It’s so interesting. to just follow your urge, right? If you get an urge to do something, find out why. Do it for a bit and find out why…
Penny
Why are you doing the thing… I did a fantastic course with Rachel Smithbone and I was gonna launch this, this little product idea that I had, and I just got to the end of it. And I was like, I don't think I've done it. Because I want to do it. I think I've done it, you know, for my parents, it was very weird. It was like a… it was all about grief. And it was about a bit of a grieving journey. And so I was like, yeah, that's why I've done it. But I don't, I don't think it's taking me… I did another course about developing some oracle cards… And that sort of sat gathering dust. I enjoyed doing it. But getting things over the line’s been really, really difficult. But I'm not gonna beat myself up about that now. It's just trying things.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying -
Penny
And If I hadn’t done those things, I wouldn’t have gotten into this volunteering role. And there were a lot of points where I was like, I'm not doing this, this is wrong, you know, can't cope with all this. Oh, won't happen. I won't do it. Or the art degree as well, you know, what we're doing this for, you know, and then you walk down the line, and then the process and, and something will, something will click and something will be like, Yeah, this is right. And this is what I want to do. But yeah, it's it's letting yourself experiment…
Hannah Harvey
Yeah, and doing things for you because you want to do them, not because it's for anybody else for any other reason.
Penny
And I did lots of travelling, it was a bit like Eat, Pray, Love. I was like, I'm absolutely I'm not. I can't get enthused about travel. And that used to be my, you know, my travelling has always been massive. And I've had amazing adventures. But I kind of sat there at the end of last summer, parting ways with my friend after interrailing. And I just wanted to get on the plane… And I thought, actually, what I'm doing is trying to run away.
Hannah Harvey
Yes, fight or flight is still in that bit of your brain
Penny
…And travel’s beautiful, and it's been healing in its own way. But also, I then came back and really thought, right, I've got to really focus on grounding myself in my life. And it's the little everyday things. The little rituals that keep me grounded at home and wanting to be, especially when the kids come and go and you're juggling, that's really hard juggling two different lifestyles, you know, when you're really busy and you've got kids in the house and then when you haven't… Yeah, it's those little things that keep you grounded. I’ve done a lot of work on that one recently.
Hannah Harvey
On helping you get grounded?
Penny
Yeah, yeah. And just being in this everyday life.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah, yeah. It's not as easy as it seems… So many shiny distractions, and new projects, and…
Penny
I'm just running off again.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah, Interesting.
Penny
What else did I say? Trust, having a lot of trust, I think is really important. Because you can catastrophise... That's the word, yeah… And you think, you know, it's not good. It's all gonna be terrible, because that was hard, because that was terrible. The future is gonna go wrong. But actually, I've got this lovely little thing that I have on my desk, and it just says, you know, ‘What, if it all goes, right?’
Hannah Harvey
Mmmmmm…. And I think the thing is -
Penny
You think it’s gonna go wrong, it's gonna be hard, but -
Hannah Harvey
It might go wrong AND right. I think that's what I learned from CBT is like, it's probably not going to be amazing, and it's probably not gonna be awful. It might well be just in the middle.
Penny
Yeah. And I think it's learning to — when you've been in sort of a traumatic situation — you're really used to highs and lows. And yeah, I think yeah, going back to dating apps as well. You start to crave those highs and lows, I'm always like, I have this weird thing of like, going to check the postbox. It's like I'm expecting like a golden ticket for Willy Wonka to just magically appear. And I think it goes back to blogging days and getting mad things in the email. But it's that dopamine hit… And dating apps are the same. But it's learning to navigate a kind of a steady path and find the dopamine hits in, you know, enjoying your coffee, and enjoying the sunset, in lighting a candle...
Hannah Harvey
And getting to bed on time.
Penny
Yeah, yeah. In simple things. Yeah, although the gratitude. I know what you mean about gratitude. It is part of that compassion thing that I mentioned. And I've always really struggled with it myself. But somehow doing it in that app at the end of the day. And doing it religiously has been a positive. And also there's one where you are at the start of the day, you think, you know, what would make today a good day. So for today, mine was like, you know, really having a good chat on this podcast -
Hannah Harvey
Tick!
Penny
And taking dog for a walk. And you know, it's it's thinking, you know, what, what's going to make a good time and unpicking at the end those really little basic things.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah. Ummm…. Before you go, we were going to talk about your… Because you've written books. Yeah, yeah, you've done so many different things. And I think this one in particular, especially, we were talking last time about how you support your children through you know, something traumatic, like divorce, because obviously their entire world’s changing as well. You've got tools to help people.
Penny
Yeah, I know. The two books that I co-wrote with Becky, who was a blogging friend as well. ‘Create your own happy’, and ‘Be happy, be you’. This one is aimed at teenagers. And this one six to 11 year olds. And this one actually has got a chapter on navigating divorce.
Hannah Harvey
Amazing. I remember seeing them now. I think I've even bought one of them.
Penny
And basically lots of strategies. And I have, you know, with my kids, I’ve used… I’ve gone: Oh, look at this bit, or suggested all sorts of things. My mum was a play therapist. So I was constantly having therapy techniques thrown at me. But there's loads of… It’s a very practical book, lots of strategies in there, there's journaling exercises. They're all sort of scientifically proven techniques that are supposed to boost happiness. So I mean, I'll go back to it myself –
Hannah Harvey
I was gonna say, that sounds like it’s aimed perfectly at me!
Penny
The teenage version, because it's very, it's very bite size. It's a, it's a good reminder of just the little things that we need to do. Just to boost our happiness, those everyday things, you know, that I was talking about earlier?
Hannah Harvey
Perfect. Well, there you go. That's how we move on. We'll buy your teenage version of the book and just do that. Yeah.
Penny
Well, yeah. It's looking after your inner teenager, isn't it? I think I've realised that.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah, for sure.
Penny
Not just an inner child, but an inner teenager as well.
Hannah Harvey
That is when, you know, the worst things can happen. Just being alive as a teenager is tough.
Penny
Yeah, and I think mine didn't get to do art.
Hannah Harvey
Yeeeeeaaaaah.
Penny
So I want to do that now.
Hannah Harvey
You suppressed that bit.
Penny
Yeah, you should’ve sorted all that before you got into a long-term relationship.
Hannah Harvey
Yeah.
Penny
Well, mine was in, in my twenties…
Hannah Harvey
Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on…
Penny
Thanks for having me!
Hannah Harvey
And talking to us about all of your… The process. It IS difficult. And then happily coming out the other side, and getting to do an art degree. That's amazing. Good luck with that. All right. Thanks so much, Penny.
Penny
Lovely to talk to you, Hannah.
Hannah Harvey
You too! Hmm.
Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time for another episode of happily ever after with me, Hannah Harvey. It would be wonderful if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you have a friend who might enjoy this episode, please do pass it on. For anything else. You can get in touch with me either through Instagram at Mumsdays or my website, mumsdays.com
