80 - Radical Honesty and Compassion in Divorce with Penny Brereton (part one)
P = Penny
H = Hannah
H 00:02
Welcome to Happily Ever After, the podcast where we talk about life's big stories: from breakups and breakdowns to icky secrets, and happy endings it’s the stuff that makes us human. I'm your host, Hannah Harvey, I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at mumsdays.com. I'd be really grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also absolutely love hearing from you, so please do contact me through Instagram @mumsdays, with any of your stories and any thoughts you might have on the episode or any questions. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
H
Hello, and welcome to Happily Ever After, it's me, Hannah, and today I'm joined by my longtime blogging friend Penny, and I say a longtime blogging friend, it was basically I was your fan girl for quite some time. Oh, hello, Penny.
P
Hello, thank you so much for having me.
H 01:09
Oh, no, thank you for coming on. I think I asked you about two years ago. And you were like I am not ready for that yet.
P
Now feels like a really good time.
H 01:24
Good! So back in the day, when I first got to know you, I was like I think I've been blogging for about two years and I started coming along to events. And I seem to recall that you'd done something really cool with your blog, to make you go like properly pro and you're making money and working.
P
Yeah, my first blog was called A Residence or Alexander Residence at one point, I sold it to Wayfair the home store, really bizarre move on their part but I carried on writing for them for three years, I think. And then I had another blog Parent Show, which was a travel blog…
H 02:10
I went to see you speak on that.
P
Yeah, separate mums.
H
Yes, you did, like a seminar. And I remember going along to that and being like, wow, I'd love to be doing stuff like that.
P
Yeah, no, it was exciting times wasn't, it was like, I think we all came into it sort of like the Wild West and like, all sorts of exciting things were happening. We just got into a really exciting, exciting time.
H 02:38
And then I sort of disappeared from blogging. Did you keep going?
P
I did until about, it's was just sort of before COVID and other sort of projects started to take over. And yeah, gradually, sort of it felt like a different place in my life.
H
Well, when I came back, I was like, what has happened? I do not know how to do the internet anymore.
P 03:03
I think you know, in the time a bit for about a decade. And you know, in that time people will actually have you know, jobs in social media and learned how to do it professionally. These amazing, amazing sort of projects and, and social media just exploded in this. It was only Twitter when I started.
H
Uh huh, I feel like I missed the boat on the whole Instagram thing that seemed to massively take off over lockdown and I just wasn't engaged in it. And when I came back, people that were sort of around the same level of me had suddenly gone to like, hundreds of 1000s of followers. And I was like, whoa, this has changed.
P
And it just became, for me, it just became too many things to juggle.
H
It still feels a bit like that. I'm like, which thing am I meant to be focusing on?
P
But podcasting as well, that's really exciting.
H
I mean, I always wanted to do this, so it was nice to have an excuse and just be like, you know what, I'm just going to have a go and see, see what where it takes me. And nicely, it led me back to connecting with you.
P
I know, it was, I mean, it's so funny that I'm not funny, but all of our blogs are so much about family life and now I'm connecting with people who are divorced.
H 04:21
But that it wasn't it you'd listened to some of my podcasts and reached out because you were basically in exactly the same stages as me in terms of your divorce. And it seemed to take exactly the same amount of time for similar sort of reasons. So it was like such a weird connect that we made over that. So do you mind sharing a bit? I mean, obviously you don't need to go to warts and alls and who did what, but the kind of context around?
P 04:55
Yeah, I had been married for 15 years together for 22 years when we divorced, kids were 11 and 13 now they're 15 and 17 now. It feels like a long time, but also no time. And yeah, it was in the midst of COVID. So that was particularly tricky.
H
It was awful wasn’t it? So, did you have to, did you leave the family home or did your ex?
P 05:32
Well, we were in the midst of moving, we had bought another house. Because after I sort of quit blogging, we were running holiday lets and the holiday lets were in the house that I used to live in. But we decided sort of to move away from that and so but then, I mean, we were left in this nice position where it's like, which one of us what wasn't a nice position at all, at the time that one of us could stay in one of us could go into the new house. I chose, it took me so long to make that decision. Those decisions just feel there's tiniest or big decisions feel just horribly unsurmountable at the time. I chose to go with new, which was a really positive decision for me, location wise, and also just having a clean slate. And also I mean, it was stressful as well. We were in the middle of this renovation and I've been project managing it and I literally downed tools for three weeks, I had a bit of a breakdown. But my builder, I've been working with him for a long time, and he just sort of said, look, you know, here's a paintbrush, this will help with your mental health. And yeah, literally did some of the most boring jobs on this house. But I look at kind of skirting boards, and I look at -
H
I painted that bad boy.
P
I painted that yeah. Or I scrubbed that and I was scrubbing away, you know?
H
Yeah, I think when it's so overwhelming, relying back on kind of mundane tasks were like, just relief.
P
Yeah, I did a lot of CBT and that takes you, I've had so much therapy, but that takes you right back to just the most mundane tasks that you need to do for the day and tick boxes and little hits of dopamine from getting single things done. Yeah.
H
Yeah, definitely. Like take it back to the process, not the end goal, because it changes all the time as well, doesn't it? So I feel like the age of your children would have been really tricky. Mine were quite a bit younger.
P 07:53
Yeah, my son was 11 and just literally two weeks off starting high school in the midst between the two lockdowns. It was horrendous for him, and it went really badly. I had to then deal with school refusal for a couple of years. And I mean, actually, he's doing brilliantly now. Amazes me, you know. I yeah, I think children do, people said to me, kids will blame themselves. And they do. I didn't even realise that was going on. I had to sort of sit down, have some really quite radically honest conversations with them and say, you know that, that's, it's not you. But yeah, it was it was tough at the time. But also now I look at it and I've said to a lot of friends who are divorced, and you know that... And there may well be repercussions later, you never know with parenting, but I feel that I'm able to parent them in a way that's kind of radically honest, that really lets them see, you know, how I put myself back together how when I fall apart or when things are difficult, I'm quite honest with them now and you know, they see that I know, watching my parents I think you know they, watching them deal with grief. I don't think they were ever that they hid a lot from me. Yeah, and that pain. And now as they've got older I think because they are older it's allowed me to be honest in a way that it's taught them a lot. And I see that now, and it's it's incredible to watch the levels of sort of understanding, the vocabulary they have around mental health, around and being compassionate, about understanding and difficult situations. It's, it's, it's incredible. I’ve said that to so many people, it can be a real positive and because I think they get a lot of, we co-parent 50/50, they are always with one parent who's giving them a lot of attention. They're not caught in between two parents that they really appreciate.
H
Yeah, but you haven't got one parent who's run ragged trying to do it all on their own, and then get to go to the other one and get spoiled rotten, because it's not enough time.
P
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah. There are absolute positives, and it was a nightmare at the time. A difficult, a difficult stormy sea. But you know, actually, I think they've come out with some incredible positives.
H 10:37
Yeah, it's what you've said, there's reminded me of, I remember being like, maybe three or four and seeing my mum cry. I think a friend had died or something like that. I'm not even sure what it was, but just being like, oh, my God. Like, we just you generally just didn't see your parents ever be upset. Like that was kind of the way we were taught to parent. And I think, I remember quite a few people like, reading a few things about people saying I'd, I'd cry in the shower, and I try and keep that away from them. But then on the other side, I was told by a child therapist that you should show them when you're upset, like let them actually experience you being upset as well and talking it through. And so there's this conflict of like, well, how much you know, how much do I allow them to see my grieving process?
P 11:36
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think it's, I think there's a really dangerous thing around divorce, particularly for women. It's quite patriarchal, that you know, that women hide it all from the children. And sometimes that involves hiding men's bad behaviour as well, and not being sort of honest, and that can become incredibly poisonous because you're, you know, you're there's this cognitive dissonance for them, you know, they can tell something's wrong. And that's when children can really start to sort of, to blame themselves, I think so radical honesty about, as my children have got older has actually been really healing for for us. And I think, you know, I've able to be more real, more authentic with them, because I'm honest about, you know, some of the things that have happened that weren't okay. And, I mean, I was also, I lost my dad about four months after we separated so, you know, I've constantly have this comparison, and that, you know, I'd lost my mum about 10 years before that, so it was a bit like, what the hell is going on universe? Why are you sending me all this at once? You know. But yeah, grief, grieving for parents, grieving for a divorce of a relationship. Very, very different processes.
H
Oh, really?
P
Yeah. Yeah.
H
I mean, obviously, I know that with, you know, when your relationship ends, and you don't necessarily want it to it can feel like grief, but it's obviously not the same as physically losing someone and you can't ever speak to them again.
P
Well for me anyway, as a sort of there's a finality when somebody dies, there's it's, it's the end of love but that wasn't the case with my, my separation. You know, there was a lot of there's a lot of very difficult feelings and a lot of things that aren't resolved, but I think in showing, I think it, bereavement taught me a lot about you know, dealing with difficult situations. But still totally different. Totally different process to, to divorce.
H 14:01
I think the main thing with divorce is that there is there's a conflict. So you're you're really sad about something ending but you're also in the midst of a battle in some ways.
P 14:17
Yeah. Sadly, you know, regardless of I mean, every divorce is different. And that's something I've discovered, you know, lots of people have come to me and asked for advice and I've been like, well, you'd be better talking to my ex than talking to me, our situations are different. Or, you know, or actually, what you're telling me is really triggering for me!
P
yours is so different but yeah, yeah. Now I've forgotten what I was saying now I've gone off on a tangent haven't I.
H 14:44
I was just about to ask you what you thought the hardest thing about your divorce was?
P 14:51
Timing. Because of COVID because of my dad, because of being in the midst of renovating a house although that turned out to have a silver lining, I'd also fallen out of working because, no I hadn't. I mean, we were running self catering properties. But that had to stop because of COVID. And I'd stopped my blog because children's dad was travelling so much, and I'd sort of lost love with it. And I was focused on the Airbnbs and I just thought, oh, God, you know, suddenly my whole life, everything, you know, I was an orphan, I was divorced, I was in a new home. I didn't have I didn't know what to do for work, everything just sort of went. And that was really, really in the midst of COVID as well, when you can't just you know, it was really hard work at times just to arrange support or to get people you know, to be with you. Was pretty, pretty miserable. But and yeah, the impact on mental health was phenomenal. I’m still battling with that now, you know, I can be absolutely fine with things on a this is happening present level, rational level, rational Penny's like, yeah, that's fine, that's okay. That's water under the bridge. But the part of your brain that has been traumatised will will not let that go.
H
And yeah, like the slightest triggers. I'm still caught out. I'm like, why is that triggering me?
P 16:27
Yeah. And it's learning to... I mean it's sneaky as well, like the brain. I've learned so much about the brain and I'll go yeah, no I'm fine with that, that's okay. And then a couple of weeks later, I'll be like, why am I struggling to do even the stupidest little things today? Why am I angry? Why? And yeah, it's just having to sit within those emotions. And I still still go to therapy, just to keep on top of it all, but I'll sit there and I'll be like, why am I doing this again? Why am I going through this again? Why am I having to keep processing?
H
Why are we? Is it maybe just personality types or...
P
I think for me, it was a lot of trauma in one go.
H
Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. Well, there you go. I think the more -
P
I think I've learned I am a massive try and think my way out. Naturally, I've done lots of stuff, that's, I've done sort of somatic experiencing. But you know, you've done before, haven't you?
H
Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit about what the kind of the route you took for recovering.
P 17:43
Yeah. I mean, I had a really good friend who did some Reiki with me and she said, you know go and find somebody else who's do, who can do it when you go home because she was in London and then I found Helen Craven locally. And we had Reiki and... I've become much more spiritual as I know you have. And, and that was really powerful. I did some work with Rachel Smithbone who you've had on your podcast.
H
Yeah. What did you do with Rachel?
P
We just we did some incredible sort of ceremony, sort of one to one stuff just around releasing and letting go of different things. And I mean, absolutely bonkers stuff when I describe it to other people but really powerful, really powerful. And I had a really lovely ceremony myself. I'm, sort of my birthday last year I invited people from all different areas of my life, I think friends have been one of the most healing things and you know, still got best friend from school and a lovely gang from university days, and didn't think I wanted to stay here. I hadn't been here very long when we separated, but lots of amazing people have come into my life and just had sort of 15 people for different areas of my life, sat around a bonfire and having some cacao and, and just sort of being a bit grateful for that female influence in my life, I think, you do realise that women are the, gosh, and these friends that have been the true loves of my life have been there through thick and thin, really, really magical stuff.
H 19:25
That's amazing. So you have kindly agreed to come and do a second episode because I want to talk about sort of the moving on process, I guess, because you get you know, this surviving divorce is one thing but what happens once it's all over like we've got all these opportunities and obviously opportunities are terrifying, as well as amazing. So we'll come back and talk about that. But in terms of finishing off this, if you could go back to like yourself at the beginning of your divorce, like, what would you say to yourself now that you've been through it, have you've got any sort of points and tips?
P 20:10
I think the biggest thing is compassion. Self Compassion.
H
It’s so hard.
P
It really is. Weirdly, I think the universe has just sent me. And I do, I do find the synchronicity, sometimes quite remarkable the things that have happened since. And I look at it and just think, you know, my life was always quite da da da da, and then suddenly, everything blew up. Yeah, what is that about? But yeah, compassion. A friend that came into my life as a clinical psychologist has become a really good friend and introduced me to work of Paul Gilbert. And I've got this amazing app called the self compassion App.
H
Oh, my God, I need that.
P
Yeah. I keep saying telling people about is by Chris Irons and Elaine Beaumont, just to plug them but.
H
I've got their massive book.
P
Have you?
H
Yeah.
P 21:06
Yeah, no, it's from it's from the book but now this is an app, but it's very much Derbyshire based. I think a lot of the work is done at the University under Paul Gilbert. But it is incredible. If you can really sort of focus, you know, and I would beat myself up on things like timelines, or not being able to do stuff, you know, like, why am I not, why am I not further ahead? Why have I not sorted this out? Why am I getting stressed over this? Constant!
H
That's where I live.
P
Critical voice. Therapists said that to me you know, Why are you so self critical? And, and that's a scar and a wound from it all, you know, and, but learning to be compassionate. I think, compassion, focus therapy is definitely the way to go in terms of just trying and talk to yourself in a much more, you know, encouraging compassionate way. Especially when you're dealing with a really tricky brain and realising that our brains are tricky, because they go back 1000s and 1000s of years, and we're still stuck with brains that are trying to protect us from you know, tigers, and yeah, so understanding yourself has been a huge lesson, and I'll put radical self care, whatever that means to you. I think a lot of people panic. Are the kids gonna be alright, but if you're not, it's about putting your own oxygen mask on isn't you know, if you're, you're alright. They're gonna be all right. So you do have to be quite radical and quite selfish in your self care, and whatever that means to you. I know. I think we're both wearing orange today. And we both had Katie do our colours, didn't we?
H
Yes, we did.
P
That's another thing. But just, you know, that was lovely thinking about my style, thinking about my home, thinking about how I want things to be, whether it's sort of treatments, beauty treatments, whether it's Reiki, whether it's therapy, all about self cares, it's huge.
H
Yeah, like the hard things as well as the nice things.
P
Yeah, yeah.
H 23:12
It's such a tricky thing to deal with. Because, you know, loads of people talk about using gratitude, like, write a gratitude list. But for me, when I write a gratitude list, it can become a stick to beat yourself with like, why you're not doing better, you've got all these amazing things, you should be achieving more and doing more, and all that kind of stuff. So you have to be so careful with all of that. And just try and treat yourself as like the little version of you.
P 23:46
No, absolutely, absolutely. I think, you know, if you've been in a relationship for a long time, you've been relying on somebody else to sort of validate you, to support you. And we quite easily fall into that trap, especially when you've got kids and you're busy, and you forget to sort of do all of that. And it's re-learning how to do it all yourself. And I mean, I got into my relationship, in my early 20s. And, you know, I'd come straight out of university and not really spent a lot of time really looking after myself. Being completely independent. So yeah, it's comes back to haunt you, I think.
H
Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much, Penny.
P
No, no worries. Thank you for having me.
H
We'll talk again very soon about moving on.
P
I look forward to it. Thank you.
H
All right, then. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you next time for another episode of happily ever after with me, Hannah Harvey. It would be wonderful if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you have a friend who might enjoy this episode, please do pass it on. For anything else you can get in in touch with me either through Instagram @mumsdays or my website mumsdays.com
