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Hannah: Welcome to Happily Ever After, the podcast where we talk about life's big stories. From break-ups and breakdowns to icky secrets and happy endings. It's the stuff that makes us human. I'm your host, Hannah Harvey. I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at MumsDay.com. I'd be really grateful if you can subscribe and leave a review, because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also absolutely love hearing from you, so please do contact me through Instagram at @MumsDays M.U.M.S.D.A.Y.S with any of your stories and any thoughts you might have on the episode, or any questions. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
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Hannah: Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah. And today I'm joined by Katie. But Katie in a very different light.
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Katie: Oh, right. Made it sound like you'd forgotten my name there for a second.
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Hannah: It's because I was thinking of how to actually introduce you. Because today you've got a different hat on,
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Katie: I do. You're right.
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Hannah: Today, Katie is the expert in MAFS. Married at First Sight UK edition.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Series eight. Is it?
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Katie: I have no idea because this is the first one I've ever watched. And I've become obsessed and it's a problem.
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Hannah: So I have been watching it and I've only ever watched one series before. It was a random Australian one, and that was after Claire Venus came on was like, what do you mean you've never seen it before? It's the best thing ever to grace our tellies. And you and I were like, pfft.
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Katie: Yeah, yeah, I did feel like that. Yeah.
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Hannah: Like how how can it actually be that good?
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Katie: Yeah,
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Hannah: It sounds stupid.
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Katie: It does sound stupid. And I also.. when I first started watching it as well, I was like, we're going to look back on this, like in the next century and be like, how could we possibly do that to people for entertainment? Like, it's really cruel. A bit like how Jeremy Kyle is, and I still feel that way, but I'm obsessed with it and I like I can't stop thinking about it, so that's great.
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Hannah: Yeah, I remember a similar feeling, like back in the 90s when Big Brother started
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Katie: It's very Big Brother vibes. Yeah,.
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Hannah: Yeah, and I watched that first series and I became obsessed and I felt like they were my friends.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And I wanted to move in with them.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And be with them forever.
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Katie: That's how I feel as well about it. Yeah.
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Hannah: So interesting. But it was literally like watching hamsters in a cage.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Interact with each other.
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Katie: And to see humans and that sort of way is like very. Probably like, you know, when there's a car crash and you can't look away. It's probably like that.
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Hannah: Yeah. I mean.
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Katie: Feeding into that need.
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Hannah: I haven't watched all of this season of MAFS, but I feel like I've watched enough that we can talk about it. And there's definitely bits of it where I'm like, how are these people surviving the dinner parties, for example? I'm like, it's a lot.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: It's so intense. It's like, I'm sure borderline traumatic.
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Katie: Definitely like. And actually that was my takeaway at the end of it. Like I was like, are these people actually in love with each other? Or, and do they want to be together or have they just trauma bonded, you know?
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Hannah: Oh.
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Katie: Yeah. Right? I mean, I'm no psychologist, but I think in that sort of situation you're bound to be like, okay, there's another human being going through the same like being recorded on telly with all my feelings out. And I feel strongly about them.
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Hannah: We yeah, we're being actively encouraged to be exceptionally vulnerable with each other and the nation. And that in itself is like, well, we know whenever we've done the podcast, especially when we first started. Afterwards, it was like. The vulnerability hangover is real. Imagine doing that for weeks on end.
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Katie: Yeah. And worrying about what you're saying to the camera and things like, it must be wild.
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Hannah: And be like, come on, you and me are in this together, whether we like it or not.
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Katie: Exactly. That's bound to make you bond. I think, you know. Have you ever had, like, a really, really crappy hospitality job where they like, treat you like, treat you terrible and it's really, really hard work and there are no breaks? Those are your best friends.
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Hannah: Yeah.
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Katie: It's like when you go through something bad together, like, you bond. And I think that's what's happening on MAFS.
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Hannah: Hm. Interesting.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: But then there's also that level of like it is a game.
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Katie: It is a game. It's an experiment. As they keep reminding us.
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Hannah: It's an experiment. Who's going to win?
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: There's the competitive edge of like. I couldn't give a shit who you are. But we are going to win. Like that's my. That would be my approach if I went in.
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Katie: Even if you got somebody you didn't like.
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Hannah: Oh, yeah.
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Katie: I love that.
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Hannah: I wouldn't know I didn't like them.
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Katie: Yeah. You'd just have to win.
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Hannah: Yeah. I mean, who knows? It's hard to say because obviously things are coming up all the time on the show and it's like, oh, those two were a really strong couple. And now it's come out that he's violent or I'm thinking specifically of I've just seen Jay and what's his name. I don't know any names.
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Katie: Jay and Luke
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Hannah: Jay and Luke's situation where he's basically said she's a walkover. I can do anything I want to her. And she wouldn't bat an eyelid.
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Katie: So they. I don't know whether you've seen this bit yet, and we should probably put like a disclaimer out that there will be spoilers. So if you haven't watched the whole series yet.
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Hannah: Which is just ended, yeah.
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Katie: Maybe hit pause on the podcast and come back to us when you're done. But, um, so after the bit that you've watched, Jay and Luke get kicked out of the competition or the show because.
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Hannah: I thought they might.
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Katie: Yeah, because he, like, goes down to Jordan and Erika's flat and bangs on their door and.
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Hannah: Starts a fight. See, I've seen that.
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Katie: Oh, you've seen it. Okay.
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Hannah: And let's face it, who doesn't want to punch Jordan in the face.
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Katie: Yeah, everybody.
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Hannah: I can't get over this guy.
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Katie: Yeah, he's the worst.
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Hannah: Yeah. Like, I don't understand how somebody feels so justified to give their opinions so much so often andon everybody when he's with Erika.
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Katie: Yeah, yeah I mean I can kind of like, you know he's antagonistic isn't he. And so I can understand why it happened. But it doesn't excuse the violence. And I think they've done the right thing.
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Hannah: Totally 100%. They could not keep him in. And also he showed his true colours.
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Katie: Yeah he did. Yeah. So but it's interesting because they then come back for the finale. And
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Hannah: Are they still together?
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Katie: No. So they've split up and it's basically because I think Jay was like, I need a bit more from you if we're going to be in a long distance relationship. And um, he's like, oh, well, if you need more from me, then I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. I'm not going to try.
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Hannah: Big surprise.
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Katie: Well, yeah. And even all the experts are like, come on, dude, like you need to try a bit harder for her. So they started off being my favourite couple and
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Hannah: Yeah, same
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Katie: Now just I think he's a bit of an arsehole
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Hannah: Yeah. There was a thing. I was trying to think like why, what does he need. Like what is his. The drive to need somebody to tell him off. And I'm like, there must be some mummy issues in there.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Like he wants a woman in control keeping him in line.
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Katie: Well, yeah.
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Hannah: So they can keep pushing boundaries, but know that he's safe within that. These are the boundaries.
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Katie: Yeah. And one of the things he's getting quite criticised for online as well is like saying that he doesn't have time to try harder with this relationship and spending his time like trying to sabotage Jordan and Erica's relationship, which is something he does in the end as well. And it's like if you've got time to be. Because he's got like this photo of Jordan in the back of a taxi cheating on Erika that they bring out in the finale, which is just brilliant television.
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Hannah: Oh, wow.
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Katie: Yeah. But people are saying, like, if you've got time to do that, then you've got time to text your girlfriend, you know?
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Hannah: Yeah, but he doesn't want to.
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Katie: No exactly.
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Hannah: And how long does it really take to, like, sabotage someone's relationship with a photo?
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Katie: Yeah. Well,
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Hannah: It's a click of a button.
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Katie: Yeah. And also, um, well, I suppose I get that, but, like, it just shows that he's like a bit of an obsessive person, you know, like, that seems to be his driving force, making sure that they don't, um, stay together.
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Hannah: He wants justice.
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Katie: Yeah, exactly.
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Hannah: Because he feels like his relationship was split. Split up because of Jordan, when actually it was because he said he could go and cheat on her any time he wants, and that if you have that option, you'd go and do it.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Whereas it's it's like, well, we all have the option to cheat on our partners if we want.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: But we choose not to because we don't want to hurt them.
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Katie: Yeah. And I think he misspoke. I think he doesn't think the things that he said. But he needed to take ownership for them. You know, instead of going like. Just like crumbling into a mess and taking it out on Jordan. Like you didn't respond to that in an appropriate way at all, I don't think.
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Hannah: No he didn't. Interesting. Yeah. But we love Jay, right?
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Katie: We love Jay.
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Hannah: So much.
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Katie: I wish her the best, happiest life going forward. I hope that somebody like who she really deserves and really deserves her comes along because.
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Hannah: And they do exist.
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Katie: Yeah, they totally do. She will get somebody lovely. I have utter faith in that. Yeah.
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Hannah: Oh. Okay, so should we talk about Jordan and Erika?
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Katie: Okay. Yeah. So that. So you haven't seen the bit where. So they're all, like, happy and lovely and they've gone and they had their five weeks away and everything. And then when they come back for the reunion, they've like Thomas, Arthur and a couple of the other guys Georges I think is there as well, have been on like a night out in London altogether and
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Hannah: Just the boys.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Thomas, Arthur,
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Katie: Arthur
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Hannah: and Georges?
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Katie: Yeah, I think so. I might have got that wrong, but it's a group of them and, and Jordan as well. And they're obviously like with this group of girls and like one of them tries to kiss Jordan and he pushes her off straight away. But like there's been rumours flying around while we've not been watching, you know, and he's like denied everything. And then when they get to the dinner party, like Thomas and Arthur are like, no, she did kiss you though. Like that did happen. And Erika absolutely kicks off about it.
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Hannah: As she would.
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Katie: Yeah. Well, they're like, well you did push her off straight away. Like, you know, it was obvious that he didn't want to kiss her, but, um, he's lied about the whole thing, which is what Erika's problem is. And I think like, men do that out of fear, don't they? You know. Whereas it would be much better to just go. Yeah, I got a bit flirty with a girl and a night out and I'm sorry about it.
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Hannah: That's a scary, honest conversation to have, isn't it?
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Katie: It is. But wouldn't you prefer that to what actually happened at the end, which is her being confronted at a dinner party with a photo of him in the back of a taxi?
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Hannah: Well, it's just classic MAFS. That's how it always works out. Nobody communicates anything until they're all sat together at the dinner party and then it all comes out. Yeah.
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Katie: Yeah, it was really quite something. I don't have big high hopes for them for the future. Unfortunately. Erika and Jordan. But they are currently still together, so we'll see.
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Hannah: Interesting. Something about like both of them had in common was this sort of ability to come into the group and stir things up.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Um. Yeah, well, I don't understand what was going on with the girls and Erica so much, other than it just felt like. I guess it was a bit of an arrogance. Maybe that was coming across and it was probably not intended.
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Katie: No, no. But they I think like when they were a bit like. It's a bit like them being caged animals, isn't it, you know, and they've like made their friendships and they've got their packs and then they come in as a new couple and she's like an alpha isn't she. Yeah. And so it rocked. What's the saying? Like it upset the applecart. It rocked the applecart?
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Hannah: Yeah.
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Katie: Something to do with an apple cart.
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Hannah: Things happened with apple carts and
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Katie: It did happen with an apple cart.
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Hannah: It was a lot. Yeah.
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Katie: Yeah, I can understand them not liking your attitude. I mean.
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Hannah: It just seemed a little bit of unnecessary, like. Eye rolling and we're better than you type comments. Which I just don't understand why you'd come in and do that if you're new.
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Katie: No, exactly.
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Hannah: And why do you have to come in and be an alpha anyway? Just. You're new.
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Katie: Insecurity probably. I'd put it down to insecurity, you know, thinking that you have to be the best ones.
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Hannah: Yeah. And I guess as well, they were maybe one of the youngest couples.
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Katie: Yeah, they all seem really young. Do you think they're all really young?
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Hannah: I felt, well, I know the youngest couple was Sasha and.
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Katie: Oh, Tasha and Paul.
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Hannah: Tasha not Sasha. Tasha and Paul were the youngest and I feel like Jordan and Ericka were also the youngest, so that's probably what got Tasha's back up the most. Was them coming in as like the new young couple. And they were the young couple.
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Katie: Yeah. And she responded badly to it, to be fair. But like, I think that's just who she is, you know. Fiery as she says a lot.
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Hannah: But do you think as well, because we'd known them longer like I was on her side.
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Katie: Yeah, totally. Like
00:14:34 - 00:14:35
Hannah: And that's awful.
00:14:35 - 00:14:43
Katie: Well, we form such alliances with them, don't we? We're like. Like when Roz and Thomas broke up like that,
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Hannah: Did they break up?!
00:14:44 - 00:14:48
Katie: Yeah. Oh, so, Roz and Thomas break-Up. Yeah. I know.
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Hannah: I'm at the part where they're, like, enjoying sex toys and bunny outfits.
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Katie: Which is amazing, right?
00:14:52 - 00:14:53
Hannah: The best.
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Katie: They go for the home stays. And when they get to Roz's house, like she is enveloped back into her family and there's like, lots of nice nieces and nephews and she's like, actually, I can't see this working. Like, I don't see you in this picture. And
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Hannah: Awww
00:15:10 - 00:15:14
Katie: I know, it's really sad. I was so invested in them. You know.
00:15:14 - 00:15:17
Hannah: He's cute as well.
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Katie: I know yeah. And then and now he's really muscly as well.
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Hannah: Oh
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Katie: Yeah. He's got a big body. That's what he's doing. Left MAFS and eating loads of protein.
00:15:25 - 00:15:31
Hannah: Oh my God, I love that. Oh, what a shame.
00:15:31 - 00:15:37
Katie: I know it's a shame, but I felt really felt really, genuinely upset when they broke up. So that's weird for me.
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Hannah: Okay, let's talk about them because I thought their whole journey was like, probably my favourite.
00:15:44 - 00:15:58
Katie: Yeah, well, it still maybe is, you know, like. So he was like, absolutely devastated about it. Um, as you think he would be, you know, and she was pretty gutted about it as well, but was just like honest about it.
00:15:59 - 00:16:03
Hannah: She has been throughout. From the beginning it was like, I just don't really like him.
00:16:03 - 00:16:04
Katie: Yeah
00:16:04 - 00:16:08
Hannah: So I'll have sex with you to see if I can spark something, which I get like.
00:16:08 - 00:16:09
Katie: Yeah same.
00:16:09 - 00:16:12
Hannah: Adding a bit of physical intimacy. And then it's like, oh, actually.
00:16:13 - 00:16:16
Katie: Yeah. But like even when they had sex, she was still like, oh, I dunno.
00:16:17 - 00:16:19
Hannah: Exactly. It took her a while to be like.
00:16:19 - 00:16:29
Katie: Yeah, which I think is okay. I think that's all right. You know, I don't think you need to have that initial spark to have like long standing and good relationship.
00:16:29 - 00:16:38
Hannah: Well, no. And it feels like the classic arranged marriage thing of like, can we invest enough in this to make it actually work?
00:16:38 - 00:16:48
Katie: And I think they were willing to. I think she just when she went back into her own life, she was like, I'm not going to care about you as much when I come out of this. Which is fair enough.
00:16:49 - 00:16:50
Hannah: Hmm.
00:16:50 - 00:16:53
Katie: Mm. Because she's got so much going on in her own life.
00:16:54 - 00:16:55
Hannah: But then that suggests.
00:16:56 - 00:16:57
Katie: She didn't want..
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Hannah: Does anybody fit into that then?
00:17:00 - 00:17:03
Katie: Well, yeah, but I guess only somebody that she felt really strongly about.
00:17:04 - 00:17:04
Hannah: Okay.
00:17:04 - 00:17:05
Katie: Do you know what I mean?
00:17:06 - 00:17:15
Hannah: Yeah. So maybe if they'd had more time and more. I don't know, space away from everything else. And then. I don't know.
00:17:15 - 00:17:42
Katie: No, but it's a weird situation to put yourself in. To be in a relationship like. Nobody gets that. You don't get like weeks on end with each other to learn whether you like each other or not, and then have to incorporate yourselves into each other's lives. I think it is. It must be like a real turning point for some people to be like, oh, actually, like I was having a really nice time with you when that's all I had to do. But I've realised that there's things I feel more strongly about in my life outside.
00:17:46 - 00:17:47
Hannah: Interesting.
00:17:47 - 00:17:51
Katie: Which I reckon is probably one of the reasons the experiment doesn't always work, you know.
00:17:53 - 00:17:54
Hannah: Well, they're strangers.
00:17:54 - 00:17:55
Katie: Exactly.
00:17:55 - 00:18:00
Hannah: It's like. Yahtzee.
00:18:01 - 00:18:04
Katie: Is it like Yahtzee? Is it?
00:18:05 - 00:18:14
Hannah: It's a roll of seven dice. Is it going to work? Are you going to get six all sixes, or is it going to mean a couple of sixes and some ones and twos?
00:18:14 - 00:18:27
Katie: Yeah, I know because they say like they interview them and like try and match them up properly and make sure that one is everything that the other one wants, but they definitely don't because.
00:18:27 - 00:18:28
Hannah: They're making telly.
00:18:28 - 00:18:30
Katie: Yeah, I know.
00:18:30 - 00:18:33
Hannah: They're doing their best with the people that they want on the show.
00:18:34 - 00:18:46
Katie: Yeah, they are, because it's evident. Like so in the end, um, Adrienne and Matt break up as well, and that's because he wants kids and she doesn't. And you'd think
00:18:46 - 00:18:48
Hannah: Is Matt the big beefcake?
00:18:48 - 00:18:50
Katie: The big beefcake. Yeah. And the blonde girl.
00:18:50 - 00:18:52
Hannah: Who wants kids and who doesn't?
00:18:52 - 00:18:54
Katie: Matt does. Adrienne doesn't.
00:18:54 - 00:18:55
Hannah: Oh, right. Okay.
00:18:55 - 00:19:01
Katie: And you'd think that would be something that they would have thought about before coupling them, you know?
00:19:02 - 00:19:03
Hannah: Yeah. Did they not ask that?
00:19:03 - 00:19:03
Katie: Yeah.
00:19:03 - 00:19:04
Hannah: Do you want children?
00:19:04 - 00:19:05
Katie: Yeah.
00:19:05 - 00:19:06
Hannah: No I absolutely don't.
00:19:06 - 00:19:08
Katie: You'd think that would be.
00:19:09 - 00:19:17
Hannah: I guess it's a bit of a. Because you can say I don't want kids and then meet the love of your life and be like, oh my God, I need to make a little version of you.
00:19:17 - 00:19:21
Katie: That's true. But both of them felt quite strongly
00:19:21 - 00:19:22
Hannah: Okay
00:19:22 - 00:19:23
Katie: About their opinions.
00:19:23 - 00:19:24
Hannah: Nothing changes here.
00:19:24 - 00:19:33
Katie: Yeah, exactly. So it does feel a bit like why did you bother with that in the first place? And now he's with Shona on the outside.
00:19:33 - 00:19:35
Hannah: That makes zero sense to me.
00:19:35 - 00:19:36
Katie: I think it makes loads of sense.
00:19:36 - 00:19:37
Hannah: Do you. Why?
00:19:37 - 00:19:46
Katie: Because I think she just wants somebody to love. And I think he's a lovely, boring beefcake, you know, that she can love.
00:19:46 - 00:19:47
Hannah: Yeah, I get that.
00:19:48 - 00:19:56
Katie: I reckon he'll take care of her. I think she'll take care of him. Could work. I didn't think he was boring.
00:19:56 - 00:19:57
Hannah: Bradley.
00:19:57 - 00:19:58
Katie: Bradley was awful.
00:20:00 - 00:20:05
Hannah: Oh, so much. I actually have trauma tingles going through my arms and legs.
00:20:05 - 00:20:08
Katie: Good. Yeah. That's good. When you think about him?
00:20:08 - 00:20:09
Hannah: Yeah.
00:20:09 - 00:20:10
Katie: Great.
00:20:12 - 00:20:51
Hannah: And it's so funny because, you know, Ali, my friend, I see dip with. She'd never watched any MAFS before either. And then I just suddenly got a message. I think she was maybe an episode or two behind me. And I was messaging you, going, oh, my fucking God, Brad is the worst. I can't cope, I can't watch. That is car crash telly right there. Like just the way you spoke to her and thought he was so much better than her. She's there like her little puppy dog being like, please love me, please love me. Yeah. Um. And I can relate hard. Like, I remember falling hard like that for people that absolutely were the worst.
00:20:52 - 00:20:53
Katie: Yeah. It happens.
00:20:53 - 00:21:00
Hannah: And you can and. Obviously from the outside you're like, oh my God, is that what it looked like to everybody else? Like, it's so obvious when you're not in it.
00:21:00 - 00:21:01
Katie: Yeah.
00:21:01 - 00:21:08
Hannah: But anyway, so Ali. I'm messaging you going oh my God Brad. And then I get one from her going, oh my God Brad is the worst.
00:21:08 - 00:21:12
Katie: Yeah. Everybody thought he was the worst. And they come back in the end as well. Yeah.
00:21:12 - 00:21:26
Hannah: And I don't I don't know whether it's intentional or if he just it's in his nature to take advantage of somebody if they're not as strong as him or what, but just that whole he thought it was Jesus.
00:21:26 - 00:21:46
Katie: Well, when he comes back, she's like, you love bombed me. And he's like, yeah, I did. And it's like, this isn't okay. Like, why is there no apology or anything? He's just like, totally okay with his behaviour, I think. I hope he never gets another girlfriend. And that's very strong isn't it?
00:21:46 - 00:21:53
Hannah: Well, he's now played it out on telly, but he will and it'll be somebody like Shona.
00:21:54 - 00:22:01
Katie: It's such a shame because he's a very toxic man and I'm sorry that she had to go through that.
00:22:06 - 00:22:09
Hannah: Yeah. I don't think there's any changing that.
00:22:09 - 00:22:09
Katie: No
00:22:09 - 00:22:20
Hannah: He didn't. You know when. When they're like, the experts are going. You don't get to allow her. You're saying things like allow her and let her. And he's like yeah, yeah, I'm intentionally saying that.
00:22:20 - 00:22:21
Katie: I know yeah exactly.
00:22:21 - 00:22:30
Hannah: Because I want to allow her to do these things. And she's like, no, no, no, you don't get to allow her to do anything. She's her own person. Yeah. And he just. The penny never dropped.
00:22:30 - 00:22:53
Katie: Yeah. They ask him at one point like what is. What the best thing is that he's learned from being on the show or what the best thing about being on the show was. And everybody, all the other couples are saying like, oh, it's been amazing to have this journey with you. And he just says something about like, something he's learning for himself. And she's like, what about me? Like absolute narcissistic pig.
00:22:53 - 00:23:00
Hannah: I've just gone. Shit, is that what I do?
00:23:00 - 00:23:01
Katie: No
00:23:01 - 00:23:04
Hannah: I'm like. What do I love about the podcast? I've learned so much about myself.
00:23:04 - 00:23:10
Katie: Yeah, but we're not in a relationship, so that's okay. You know, we're not trying to be married.
00:23:10 - 00:23:16
Hannah: And also, I wouldn't just say that like one of my favourite things is the fact that we can hang out together and.
00:23:16 - 00:23:16
Katie: Yeah.
00:23:16 - 00:23:17
Hannah: Chat shit.
00:23:17 - 00:23:18
Katie: Yeah, yeah.
00:23:19 - 00:23:21
Hannah: And invite other people to listen, should they wish.
00:23:22 - 00:23:24
Katie: This is different to being in a marriage experiment.
00:23:24 - 00:23:26
Hannah: It's not. I love you more than life itself.
00:23:26 - 00:23:27
Katie: Love you too.
00:23:30 - 00:23:33
Hannah: Okay, so we haven't even talked about Peggy and George.
00:23:33 - 00:23:35
Katie: Oh, yeah, I love them.
00:23:35 - 00:23:47
Hannah: And we're already 20 minutes in, so let's go. You do love them? Right. I'm at the stage where she can't get over the fact that he's squatted on the internet, and I'm like, I don't understand what the problem is.
00:23:47 - 00:23:49
Katie: No, I don't understand what the problem.
00:23:49 - 00:23:52
Hannah: Do you have a problem with Georges squatting on the internet?
00:23:52 - 00:23:55
Katie: Not at all. Like I think it's very minimal.
00:23:55 - 00:24:04
Hannah: I don't either, and she's like, it's fucking weird. And I'm like, I wonder why. What she finds so threatening about it.
00:24:05 - 00:24:14
Katie: Yeah. I guess like. Maybe she's never embraced that part of herself. You know, like the weird bit.
00:24:16 - 00:24:36
Hannah: That's like the Bluebeard story where there's like, oh my God, I can't even get into all of that. But the idea that you're basically holding yourself back from the wildest part of you, you were a blue beard, and you're trying to say to yourself, don't go in that room, because if you do, you'll find dead women.
00:24:38 - 00:24:42
Katie: Yeah. Which I feel maybe needs a link. We'll put a link in the show notes to the story of bluebeard.
00:24:42 - 00:24:47
Hannah: Link to my fairy tale.
00:24:47 - 00:24:50
Katie: Yes. Yeah. Hannah explains it in one of the other podcasts. Actually, we'll link to that.
00:24:50 - 00:24:51
Hannah: Yeah.
00:24:52 - 00:25:04
Katie: It is like that. And she won't have done anything weird or off the cuff or like, you know, seen as strange in her life for fear of, like, acceptance and fitting in.
00:25:05 - 00:25:07
Hannah: Yeah. She really cares about what everybody else thinks of her.
00:25:08 - 00:25:09
Katie: Which is fine, I get that.
00:25:10 - 00:25:12
Hannah: Yeah, I mean, I totally do too.
00:25:12 - 00:25:21
Katie: But I think to pigeonhole yourself into only men that haven't squatted on webcam for the internet, I think is...
00:25:21 - 00:25:26
Hannah: I mean, I haven't really come across many that do that, but it wouldn't put me off in.
00:25:27 - 00:25:30
Katie: Yeah, it wouldn't put me off them either. No.
00:25:30 - 00:25:33
Hannah: Like, it's just like. And I do plenty of weird stuff.
00:25:34 - 00:25:44
Katie: Yeah. Well, I do as well. Like. It's. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Not at all. But it is for her. And I guess if that's important, then it's important. But it's also in his past. And you got to accept that people have got histories.
00:25:45 - 00:25:49
Hannah: But she's basically saying, like, you're never allowed to do that again if you want to be with me.
00:25:49 - 00:25:54
Katie: Yeah. But he said, okay, no problem. Which I think is what she's missing here. Like,
00:25:54 - 00:25:55
Hannah: Yeah.
00:25:55 - 00:26:01
Katie: He's like, okay, it is a bit stupid and I won't do it again if you don't want me to, which is all he needs to say, I think.
00:26:01 - 00:26:07
Hannah: Yeah. Okay. So how are they getting on? Does he get to have sex with her ever?
00:26:07 - 00:26:12
Katie: I don't know whether they've had sex yet. Like, we leave it and we don't know if they've had sex yet.
00:26:12 - 00:26:13
Hannah: I'm assuming not, then.
00:26:13 - 00:26:16
Katie: Yeah. No, I don't think so. He got a blowjob at some point. Definitely.
00:26:17 - 00:26:17
Hannah: Oh well. That's nice.
00:26:17 - 00:26:30
Katie: Which was in the show. It's weird how they tell us that. I think they're like, oh yes, we've progressed our intimacy, but not fully. And I'm like, yeah so he got a blowjob. And that's what happened. And he's like, got this huge grin on his face.
00:26:30 - 00:26:32
Hannah: Oh that's nice.
00:26:32 - 00:26:33
Katie: Yeah. It's nice.
00:26:33 - 00:26:41
Hannah: Yeah. Who else are we forgetting? Love, Tasha and Paul. I think they're super cute. He is like God's gift to the planet.
00:26:41 - 00:26:42
Katie: Paul?
00:26:42 - 00:26:46
Hannah: Yeah, just like this little cherub soul.
00:26:46 - 00:26:48
Katie: He is a cherub soul, yeah.
00:26:48 - 00:26:49
Hannah: In a beefcake body. Yeah.
00:26:49 - 00:26:58
Katie: He's lovely. Yeah. Really like Paul. Really like them generally. I- Tasha is like, wears the pants. But I think that's okay because he's okay with that.
00:26:58 - 00:27:01
Hannah: Yeah. And she kind of needs to, to feel secure.
00:27:01 - 00:27:03
Katie: Yeah. And that's okay I get it because I'm that person too.
00:27:03 - 00:27:04
Hannah: Yeah.
00:27:05 - 00:27:08
Katie: And then we haven't talked about Ella and JJ.
00:27:08 - 00:27:13
Hannah: Oh Ella and JJ and Ella and Nathaniel. Nathaniel. Hello.
00:27:14 - 00:27:15
Katie: Yeah he's very hot.
00:27:16 - 00:27:18
Hannah: But such hard work.
00:27:18 - 00:27:22
Katie: Yeah, very much so. Like I didn't get it. I didn't get Nathanial.
00:27:22 - 00:27:31
Hannah: I think he genuinely wanted to find a spark to the point of flogging a dead horse.
00:27:31 - 00:27:32
Katie: Yeah,
00:27:32 - 00:27:39
Hannah: Like he wasn't feeling it. He was never feeling it. And I don't feel like it really gave her a chance.
00:27:39 - 00:27:57
Katie: I agree. Well, I just think from the beginning he was like, oh, she's not for me. And like persisted anyway. And I sort of feel like he should have just. Called it quits. Close to the beginning, you know, because I don't think it was. I don't think he ever thought he was going to be with her.
00:27:58 - 00:28:01
Hannah: Like, do you genuinely think he approaches every relationship like that?
00:28:01 - 00:28:03
Katie: No, I don't, do you?
00:28:03 - 00:28:06
Hannah: No.
00:28:06 - 00:28:08
Katie: No. I think he was doing it because he was on the show, you know.
00:28:09 - 00:28:14
Hannah: Yeah. Which is an experiment. I'm going to try and see if this can ever work. Yeah.
00:28:15 - 00:28:25
Katie: Yeah. Well, that's maybe the point she was getting at, you know, when she kept saying weird, cryptic things about how he, like, he was just doing it for the cameras and playing up. Maybe that's what she was talking about.
00:28:25 - 00:28:31
Hannah: It seems like they had lots of conversations off camera that were kind of, don't tell anyone.
00:28:31 - 00:28:36
Katie: Yeah. Which I don't, despite having read the subreddits. I don't know what they are.
00:28:36 - 00:28:45
Hannah: So but I did feel like I think the way Ella went about it, obviously she knows it was not great.
00:28:45 - 00:28:46
Katie: Yeah. It wasn't.
00:28:47 - 00:28:48
Hannah: It was not. Poor Bianca.
00:28:48 - 00:28:53
Katie: I know, but I think she is a feminist icon now.
00:28:53 - 00:29:00
Hannah: Bianca? Yeah. Oh my God. She's like Lady Gaga from London. Is that where she's from? No she's not. She's northern, isn't she?
00:29:01 - 00:29:05
Katie: I can hear her voice, but I don't know where it's from. Northern. I think you're right. Yeah.
00:29:06 - 00:29:10
Hannah: And her? Like she was Lady Gaga, like with her lovely Italian family.
00:29:10 - 00:29:28
Katie: Yeah. And just the way that she dealt with it, where she was like, right, okay, you can all fuck off now. I'm not being treated properly here, and I'm off. I'm going. I just thought it was like, because if it was me, I would have been like, crying on a puddle- in a puddle on the floor and being like, why doesn't my husband love me?
00:29:29 - 00:29:30
Katie: And she didn't do that.
00:29:30 - 00:29:32
Hannah: So I can't believe she stuck around so long, though.
00:29:32 - 00:29:38
Hannah: Yeah, true. But then they all do, don't they? The producers are probably in the background going, come on, you need to stay.
00:29:39 - 00:29:44
Hannah: You can do this. Stick with it a bit longer. He'll come round. Just give him some space.
00:29:44 - 00:29:44
Katie: Exactly.
00:29:44 - 00:29:46
Hannah: He's never come around, my friend.
00:29:46 - 00:29:52
Katie: He was not. No. He was interested in Ella, which I think is nice as well, but also like bit shit.
00:29:52 - 00:30:01
Hannah: Oh, totally. 100% shit. And I think. Oh great TV.
00:30:02 - 00:30:05
Katie: Yeah absolutely excellent TV.
00:30:05 - 00:30:17
Hannah: Yeah, it's like what they really should have done is text you know speak to Bianca and be honest. But. It's a heightened situation.
00:30:17 - 00:30:26
Katie: And they did it for the telly. Like the producers did. I mean, yeah, they didn't put them in a situation that was easy on purpose, which was good. It was very good watching.
00:30:27 - 00:30:43
Hannah: Good watching, and it was nice for Ella to have that when she'd you could see how much she really wanted it to work with Nathanial. And he was not giving her an inch. And there was a bit of superiority around it. Yeah. You're not as far along your journey as.
00:30:43 - 00:30:44
Katie: Yeah, exactly.
00:30:45 - 00:30:48
Hannah: So no, we're all like equals here.
00:30:48 - 00:30:51
Katie: Yeah, exactly. He wasn't treating her like an equal.
00:30:51 - 00:30:51
Hannah: No.
00:30:54 - 00:30:55
Katie: Yeah, that was interesting.
00:30:55 - 00:30:59
Hannah: And it's hard to really form a bond with someone if they're going to treat you like that.
00:31:02 - 00:31:07
Katie: Yeah. And, um, but I'm happy for her in the end, having had a relationship with JJ because. So they don't stay together either.
00:31:08 - 00:31:08
Hannah: Oh, really?
00:31:09 - 00:31:21
Katie: Yeah. Um, but she says, like, it's the first time that she's ever felt fully accepted for who she is, which I think is like, that's great to see. Like, I feel really happy for her.
00:31:21 - 00:31:29
Hannah: Yeah. Their little faces having just come back, it's like. Yeah. Proper loved up. Yeah. Arthur and Laura.
00:31:30 - 00:31:33
Katie: Oh yes, I love Arthur. I love him.
00:31:33 - 00:31:34
Hannah: I know.
00:31:35 - 00:31:42
Katie: He's like, you know, when they have that dinner party and like, his jokes weren't landing and everybody hated him. Have you watched that one?
00:31:42 - 00:31:43
Hannah: I'm not sure.
00:31:43 - 00:32:07
Katie: So they have this dinner party where, like, Arthur's making, like, really? Well, quite inappropriate, like on the nose jokes, but everybody takes it really badly. And so they're all kind of like, shut up, Arthur. I'm trying to have a moment. And poor Arthur's like. And obviously Laura is really pissed off about it as well. And poor Arthur's like, okay, well, sit back in my seat now. Nobody gets me. And like, I think he's really funny.
00:32:07 - 00:32:08
Hannah: Awww
00:32:08 - 00:32:15
Katie: I know, yeah. Poor guy. Yeah. But so they in the end she dumps him.
00:32:15 - 00:32:18
Hannah: Fair. Does anybody stay together?
00:32:19 - 00:32:22
Katie: Peggy and Georges and Tasha and Paul.
00:32:23 - 00:32:25
Hannah: Jordan and Erica.
00:32:25 - 00:32:29
Katie: Jordan and Erica. Yeah, but we leave that a bit patchy as well because of the cheating.
00:32:30 - 00:32:43
Hannah: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Wow. And so when they all come back. The only couple that re-couple are Shona and Beefcake.
00:32:43 - 00:32:45
Katie: Yeah, but that's not shown on the telly.
00:32:45 - 00:32:49
Hannah: It's just something you know afterwards. What's happening to them now?
00:32:49 - 00:33:04
Katie: Yeah. I spend quite a lot of time reading the articles in newspapers that I would usually never touch. So that's nice for me. Oh yeah. It's been absolutely just a journey that I've been on along with the characters.
00:33:06 - 00:33:07
Hannah: Do we believe in it?
00:33:07 - 00:33:17
Katie: Yeah, I do you know. I mean, not necessarily that it's going to make you meet the love of your life, but that it's going to take you on a journey and teach you something about yourself.
00:33:17 - 00:33:23
Hannah: Yeah. You know, the biggest observation I've made is that nearly every single one of them feels like they're not good enough.
00:33:24 - 00:33:24
Katie: Yeah.
00:33:24 - 00:33:26
Hannah: And that affects everything they do.
00:33:26 - 00:33:31
Katie: Yeah. And they've all got quite a lot of baggage that affects how they are with their new partner.
00:33:31 - 00:33:32
Hannah: Yeah.
00:33:32 - 00:33:33
Katie: Which we all do.
00:33:34 - 00:33:39
Hannah: Yes we do. Have you learned anything new about yourself?
00:33:39 - 00:34:46
Katie: Well, I've been obviously comparing myself to all of the characters right the way through. Characters? They're real people. Um, and I, I don't know whether it's like, somehow, maybe a little bit, restored my faith and love because, like, I know that I've just said, like, not many of them stay together and things, but I actually think that building a relationship and a life with somebody is just about what you put into it, you know? And that's evident in this. Um, and. It doesn't have to be happily like. It doesn't have to be a fairy tale, you know, like you're not meant to sort of meet Prince Charming and marry him. And it's the best thing that's ever, ever happened to you. Ever. And that's you for the rest of your life. You know, actually, these things are quite hard work. You need to, like, compromise, put time and effort in with each other and things. And that's like evident nowhere more than it is on this show. Um, but it makes it clear that if you want to do it, then you can work on yourself and try and get places, you know.
00:34:46 - 00:35:01
Hannah: Yes, I think some of the conflict resolution was some of the best TV ever and the way the experts are like, I mean, some of the stuff, they don't even like bat an eye, they're just like, oh, that's not okay.
00:35:01 - 00:35:01
Katie: Yeah.
00:35:02 - 00:35:05
Hannah: But also let's sit down and let's deal with it.
00:35:05 - 00:35:12
Katie: Yeah. And that's great that that's on television because like, normally people think that you don't have to work on your relationship, that it should just happen.
00:35:12 - 00:35:14
Hannah: That's a deal breaker. We're done.
00:35:14 - 00:35:19
Katie: Yeah. And it's actually like. Like things like the Love Hate week was fascinating.
00:35:19 - 00:35:19
Katie: Yeah. It was.
00:35:19 - 00:35:22
Hannah: What are three things you don't like about me.
00:35:22 - 00:35:22
Katie: Yeah.
00:35:23 - 00:35:28
Hannah: And can you have that conversation without it completely making your relationship explode.
00:35:28 - 00:35:32
Katie: Yeah. I mean obviously you never want to be doing that like two weeks into a new relationship.
00:35:32 - 00:35:32
Hannah: No.
00:35:33 - 00:35:35
Katie: That's not ideal. But, um.
00:35:36 - 00:35:38
Hannah: I think it's still a helpful conversation to have.
00:35:38 - 00:35:51
Katie: Definitely. And all of the exercises that they do on there are fascinating. And it's a good example for us to have on television. I think. Of like, you need to work on your relationships, otherwise they're not going to work. Yeah.
00:35:52 - 00:35:53
Hannah: Yeah. Amen.
00:35:53 - 00:35:53
Katie: Yeah.
00:35:54 - 00:35:56
Hannah: Thank you for your expertise, Katie.
00:35:56 - 00:35:59
Katie: No problem. It's my specialist subject matter.
00:35:59 - 00:36:00
Hannah: Are you go- would you apply?
00:36:01 - 00:36:07
Katie: I thought about it at points, and. No, I don't think I'm emotionally stable enough.
00:36:08 - 00:36:11
Hannah: That's the favourite kind of candidate.
00:36:11 - 00:36:19
Katie: That's true. And actually, yeah, they'd fucking love me. But I would hate it, you know, like I'd fall apart. And also, I just don't think I've got the clothes for it.
00:36:19 - 00:36:21
Hannah: Oh, we'd have to style you before you go on.
00:36:21 - 00:36:22
Katie: We would have to style me. Yeah.
00:36:22 - 00:36:26
Hannah: Like, because they have a new outfit for every single time they're on the telly.
00:36:26 - 00:36:30
Katie: I'm not about that. So. No, it's not for me. Okay. Do you want to go on?
00:36:31 - 00:36:32
Hannah: I did, but not now.
00:36:33 - 00:36:34
Katie: Oh. Why not?
00:36:37 - 00:36:42
Hannah: Well. Firstly, my ex-husband has watched them all and was like, please don't.
00:36:43 - 00:36:45
Katie: I get that, I totally get that.
00:36:46 - 00:36:50
Hannah: And I just think it's not. it's not necessary.
00:36:50 - 00:36:51
Hannah: It's not necessary.
00:36:51 - 00:36:59
Hannah: It's an interesting experiment. But yeah, I don't need that in my life.
00:36:59 - 00:37:03
Katie: You definitely don't. No, it is interesting, but I wouldn't want to do it. Yeah
00:37:03 - 00:37:07
Hannah: Yeah. Well. Thanks, Katie.
00:37:07 - 00:37:08
Katie: Yeah. Thank you. Bye now.
00:37:08 - 00:37:09
Hannah: See you later.
00:37:12 - 00:37:35
Hannah: All right then. Thank you so much for listening. And I'll see you next time for another episode of Happily Ever After with me. Hannah. Harvey, it would be wonderful if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you have a friend who might enjoy this episode, please do pass it on. For anything else you can get in touch with me, either through Instagram at Mondays or my website Mondays. Com.
