Learning The Ropes Ep Transcript
===
Hannah: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah, and today I'm joined by Katie.
Katie: Hello.
Hannah: How are you?
Katie: Oh, I'm fine, thanks. Yeah, how are you?
Hannah: Good. I feel like we have not done a podcast catch up for a very long time, so I'm quite excited.
Katie: Yeah, me too.
Hannah: To hear what you've been up to.
Katie: Yes, me too.
Hannah: So I think the last time you and I sat together... Oh. I think it was the beginning of the summer, around the time I got into bother with that guy, who I went on a date with.
Katie: Oh yes!
Hannah: And then we talked about it on the podcast, and then he listened to the podcast.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: And was very unhappy with me.
Katie: Yes, I remember this, that was good.
Hannah: Oh! Whoops! That was a bit of an accident. I didn't... Yeah, it probably wasn't the best [00:01:00] move, but I also didn't think that a guy that I've been on one date with would Google me and listen, but.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: These things happen.
Katie: They do.
Hannah: Lesson learned. Um, so yeah, we didn't go on another date.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: You... Split up with your boyfriend.
Katie: I did.
Hannah: And you moved out and bought a house.
Katie: I did, which is good progress, I think. Well, I mean, you know, the breakup was a bit of a shame, but I'm in a better place now, so. That's good.
Hannah: Uh, yeah, you've got like the wrong one. You've moved beyond the wrong one closer to what your life is meant to be.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
Hannah: But you... How did you find the move then and all that kind of stuff?
Katie: Well, like, when we, we broke up on amicable terms and I sort of thought I'd just take my time with moving out and I got to, um, the point where I was just like. One day I was like, I don't feel comfortable here anymore, [00:02:00] so I'm going to have to find a new place to live. And I was like, you know, um, decided that I was going to rent, um, again. And, um, that I would just go in somewhere temporary, till I figured out whether I could actually afford to buy somewhere or not. But then, the place that we're in right now, recording the podcast, came up. Um, and it was sort of like, at the right price, and at the right time, and it all kind of just came together.
And I feel like... It's the best place I've ever lived and I'm really excited to be here.
Hannah: Ah, so nice.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Because I think, I felt, I felt at the time that it happened so quickly, I turned up with like my sage to sage the place and in my head you were just renting it and then I was like saging it and you were going, yeah, so I bought it and I was like, whoa, what?
Katie: Yeah, I know.
Hannah: You actually managed to buy it and move in in the space of time that I definitely had not.
Katie: Yeah, I mean like I don't technically own it yet, but we're getting there and I'm in which is the most important thing because I needed to not be living with my partner that I wasn't with anymore.
Hannah: [00:03:00] Yeah.
Katie: Like, it was hard, but I'm in a better place now and I'm loving ripping up the carpet and I'm going to paint and things so that'll be good.
Hannah: Good.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Progress as you, as you're living in it, because that's where I'm at now. I bought a house. I was given the keys in September. And then had a massive freakout.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: And it was that maiden stuff that we were talking about.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Do you remember, like, I can't even remember which episode it was, but it was 21 days after I started the sea dipping every day and I had that epiphany that I needed to grieve the maiden in order to step up and be the woman that I'm meant to be and then I was given house keys and I was like, I don't wanna do it! I want a man to come and do it for me and save me from all this.
Katie: Well and it's a bit of a fixer upper as well isn't it? You've got all of that, and I'm, I have absolute confidence that you can do it, and do it much better alone [00:04:00] than you would do without some man hanging over you.
But also, I completely get looking at it and being overwhelmed, like, and just being like, Oh, wouldn't it just be nice if I was, like, moving into my ready made mansion with my Prince Charming, like.
Hannah: Or even just like a done up flat.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hannah: Something I don't have to do and manage. And, you know, like the windows need replacing. All of the walls need stripping and plastering. I want the kitchen, you know, redoing and walls knocking down. And, yeah, it's just a big project that I... sort of regret taking on right now.
Katie: Yeah, I know, and the other thing is, like, with stuff like that, it, unfortunately, we live in a world where it is actually easier to have a man involved, because a lot of the people that do this work, like.
Hannah: Happen to be males.
Katie: Happen to be males, yeah, and, like, [00:05:00] take advantage of the fact that we don't know what they're talking about.
Hannah: But I do! I literally did civil engineering with the uni. And I'm like, oh, why am I not even using my own degree? I don't half, you know, know half of what I'm meant to be doing anymore. It was so long ago.
But equally I'm like, I know that that's not a, whatever wall and, a supporting wall and...
Katie: Yeah, well then there you go. You just flaunt your talents from, um, your degree.
Hannah: When they try and... Oh, Frank's sticking his nails in me. No, he doesn't have nails, he has claws.
Katie: My cat's with us, um, for this episode of the podcast, unfortunately, so... You might see him, yeah.
Hannah: It's fine, but yes, I did have a moment. I was given the keys. I happen to be ovulating that week, and so what I've sort of worked out is... When I'm ovulating, I go strong into that maiden archetype of, I would quite like some male attention. I don't want to have to do anything like, thinky, like do up a house.
Um, [00:06:00] and what was the other thing? But yeah, just that feeling of needing to be, or wanting to be rescued. Um, that came across strong in that week. I think if I got the keys any other week, I would have been fine. But because it was that week, I ended up tipping into panic attack area and not being very happy at all.
Um, and it was actually just before that day when we did the full podcast with like Rob Biddulph and Craig and Jo and, um, Joanne, sorry, and Laura. And it was like a massive. Massive day and I just didn't feel prepared.
Katie: That's a lot.
Hannah: It was quite a lot, I think so.
Katie: And so, at the end of all of that, to then be like, I have no energy left and I don't want to renovate a house, I think is totally acceptable, you know? Like, you need to go easy on yourself.
Hannah: I don't wanna do that. But you know, also, I'm very lucky to be in this position, so I'm aware of that. You can have your freak out moment, but then you need [00:07:00] to just go. Okay.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Come on. It's fine.
Katie: Get on with it. Yeah, it's fine. It is fine because you're perfectly capable and as we've just discussed, more capable than most at doing this.
Hannah: Oh, well there's more pressure, right?
Katie: Oh yeah, I suppose. But it's okay. Take your time. It's going to be fine.
Hannah: Yeah, it will be fine. So that'll be lovely and beautiful once it's all done. Um, and at least we've, like, cleared a bit of the garden.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Soon as we got the key. My parents were like, right, we're coming over tomorrow and we're doing the garden, and I'm like, that's the least of my worries, but thank you.
Katie: I rely on my parents very heavily in times of having no partner, and I think that's important. If you're lucky enough to have them, you know.
Hannah: Exactly. Utilise that skill. My mum was going to my dad because he, they both, well, my dad works full time and my mum's... Um, has a foster child that she looks after full time, obviously.
And she was going to him on his one day off of that he's had in, like, weeks. Ah, this will energise you, come and do the garden. And dad appears and he's like, Awww. [00:08:00]
Katie: Bless him.
Hannah: This is not energising.
Katie: It will have been good for him.
Hannah: Yeah, it was fun, it was nice to see them. Yeah. Um, so yes, we have moved. You've moved house. I'm resisting moving house, but it will happen at some point.
How are you in your single life?
Katie: Yeah, so that's been interesting.
Hannah: Ooh, good. Tell me more.
Katie: Yeah, so I've, um, I don't know whether I'm necessarily ready for it or not, but I've decided to, um, go back on the dating apps. So, that's been interesting. That's been an interesting process.
Hannah: How are the dating apps?
Katie: Oh, just awful, you know, as they ever are. I hate it.
Hannah: So what was the thought process of going back on? If you know they're awful.
Katie: Yeah, well, I kind of just wanted to like, um, see what was out there again, and remind myself that like, there are plenty of fish in the sea, and like...
Hannah: Yeah, there is that.
Katie: You know, and, and just, like, I think I'm... I'm [00:09:00] trying not to say, like, I wanted to remind myself that people find me attractive, because you don't need an app to tell you that, and you don't need other people to tell you that, but there was a bit, there was an element of that in it, you know?
Hannah: I mean, I've just told you what happens when I ovulate.
Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's something, like, it's a human thing, isn't it? You know, it's something that we all feel. Um, and so I just wanted, like, some, um, strange men from the internet to tell me that I'm pretty and smart. Yeah.
Hannah: Okay, and did you get that?
Katie: I did get that, yeah.
Hannah: Good.
Katie: Um, I kind of wanted to just like go on a date, like, um, remind myself that I can still do this and that I'm capable and nice and a catch and, um, now I sort of have taken the pressure off a bit and, um, I'm just going to take it one man at a time, get through them all, it'll be alright.
Hannah: Ah ha! Ah, one man at a time. Nice.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Uh, okay. [00:10:00] So, and you've been on a date?
Katie: I have been on a date,
Hannah: More than one?
Katie: Yeah, a couple of dates, yeah.
Hannah: With the same guy?
Katie: With the same guy, yeah.
Hannah: Did he have any pearls of wisdom for you?
Katie: Yeah, so, it was interesting because, um, we were just chatting one day and he, um, sent me... Uh, I think it was a voice note actually that said, um, something about how, um,
Hannah: A voice note?
Katie: A voice note, yeah. Um, which you like, you like a voice note.
Hannah: I do, but I don't voice note with men.
Katie: Well, it's good for like, I think, um, if you aren't... 100 percent sure of your spelling and things. I think it's good for that kind of thing.
Hannah: Oh yeah, yeah.
Katie: Um, so he sent me a voice note.
Hannah: Which I'm not.
Katie: Well, yeah. Um, and it said something about how he was interested to get to know me because he thought that I potentially had more substance than a lot of people that he talks to on the online dating app. And that reminded me of, um, the [00:11:00] introduction to your book that we were talking about on the podcast a little while ago.
Um, and how the guy on the train had told you that you, like, asked if you were vacant. And it's that same thing.
Hannah: He said, you're either really. Oh I can't remember the line now, but you're either really interesting and smart or completely vacant.
Katie: Yeah, and like, I feel like they've, like. It made me think, have men got this thing about us where like, they think that we're either, we've either got substance or we're completely vacant and there's like, nothing in between and it can't be anything to do with the fact that actually we possibly haven't given them our all yet.
Like, that was my response to it, I was like, I don't think I've got more. First of all, it was probably a line, so.
Hannah: I mean, when you first told me, I was like Is that a line?
Katie: Yeah, it was probably a line.
Hannah: You do have a lot of substance.
Katie: I do, yeah, I do.
Hannah: So I can understand why he would think that.
Katie: Yeah, and also I do wear my heart on my sleeve a little bit. I'm not necessarily, I don't hold back as much [00:12:00] as some other people do, I guess.
Hannah: Well, you're fresh as well.
Katie: I am fresh, exactly, yeah.
Hannah: So less jaded.
Katie: Yeah, so some people have been on there for years and they use the same old chat like again and again and again. And um, I sort of thought it's not to do with the fact that, anybody else on here has any less substance than me.
Like, it's to do with whether they're actually willing to give you more than just what it is when you first start up a conversation. Like, the same old stuff that you talk about over and over again because it can be really brutal being on the dating apps, you know? So, it's like, I think, completely normal to be like...
Hi, what are you having for tea? How's your day? You know, because you just don't want to open up that much when you're not sure where something's going.
Hannah: I have just had an epiphany while you're saying this.
Katie: Great!
Hannah: I think it's about attachment styles. So you and I are a bit like, never mind what you've eaten, I want to [00:13:00] know...
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: What you think deep down and what triggers you what where the heartbreak is.
Katie: And how was your childhood?
Hannah: Yeah Yeah, like what me and Jo Feeley were talking about like never mind all that stuff. I don't want to know where you're from but um, yeah, so there's probably an element of that and if you're an empath you also potentially will go on and kind of already know how to speak to the person and what they're after.
Katie: That's it. It's all, it's actually all lines, you know?
Hannah: Yeah, like what, what's going to make me more attractive to this person? And then you're like a chameleon for each person that you're actually chatting to. Whereas some women will probably go on and be like, I'm going to put... It's an attachment style.
They're much more guarded. And they'll step back a bit and be like, we can talk about this level of stuff. Until I get to know you and then maybe there's more to it. [00:14:00] Whereas, I can't remember the name of it but it was on um, my best friend podcast with Elizabeth Day. We'll link to it in the show notes I'll find it for you.
But they were talking she's a psychologist Um, and Elizabeth Day and her talk about stuff and they were talking about attachment styles and it was the first time that I realized that that was a thing.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: So people who are secure would just be normal in a relationship and people who aren't have different styles.
Some will be really guarded and set back and other people will be like, the performing monkey, almost. Like, I know exactly what you want from me and this is how I'm going to behave because that's what you want from me.
Katie: And that feeds into the rest of the way that we are as well, doesn't it? Like, the fact that we overshare about our lives on the internet and the fact that we're telling, um, these people here right now.
Hannah: They're our friends.
Katie: They are our friends, yeah.
Hannah: I keep meeting people who are like, I've listened to your podcast and I'm like...
Katie: That's nice.
Hannah: That's like reading my diary. [00:15:00] Yeah, yeah. But it's also, like, people relate to it. Yeah, whatever.
Katie: I love oversharing on the internet, it's my favourite thing. But that probably does mean that we're the, um,
Hannah: We're the attachment style that's like, the performance. Please love me!
Katie: Anxious
Hannah: Anxious! Yeah.
Katie: Yeah, that is us. Although I think I'm probably anxious avoidant, which is the worst one.
Hannah: Ah, that's the name of it. So anxious avoidant is, The one that will step back a bit. I don't think you are.
Katie: No, so there's anxious. There's avoidant. And then there's people that are anxious avoidant.
Hannah: Fuckin hell.
Katie: I think that's me. I know. Isn't it fun.
Hannah: Oh, I wonder if I am. No, I'm like, oh, I wonder if I am. I'm like, I'm absolutely not. Not avoidant. I'm like, head first.
Katie: Um, it's that scared of getting hurt thing. Which is what makes people appear vacant, I think.
Hannah: Yeah, like I'm not going to tell you too much about myself because what if you reject me?
Katie: Mm hmm, yeah.
Hannah: Which is, like, fucking fair dos.
Katie: [00:16:00] Absolutely.
Hannah: Going on the apps is brutal.
Katie: It is brutal.
Hannah: Even before you've opened your mouths, you've got people messaging saying like, I'd let you tie me up.
Katie: Mm hmm.
Hannah: Ooh, I'll tell you more about that in a minute.
Katie: Very good.
Hannah: Speaking of tying up, um, okay, so, I feel like this brings us nicely onto the fact that I'm on... A dating ban.
Katie: Yes.
Hannah: Um.
Katie: Commonly known as sex ban. Hannah sex ban. Hashtag Hannah sex ban.
Hannah: I've decided to remove the sex ban bit and just have it as dating ban. Just in case I want to have sex.
Katie: Well that's fair enough.
Hannah: Which I haven't, but you know. That was too much information.
So, um, where are we? So, sex ban, yes. Um, it's horrible.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: I really haven't enjoyed it and it's, [00:17:00] again, it's that ovulation week. That really has felt quite brutal. But it's been fascinating to see. Um, like if you can step back and be like, Oh my God, like my hormones literally rule my brain.
Katie: Yeah. Yeah they do.
Hannah: At certain times and without being in a relationship it's been the first time I've been able to actually stand back and notice how much it's like, I'm really anxious in that week because I need, I feel like the maiden It comes forth and it's like, you need somebody to look after you. Like, this is scary.
And that was a big thing when I was having the panic attack. It was like, this feeling of, I am completely alone and I can't do this on my own. And I've got two children to look after. And now a house to do up. And I'm trying to rebuild my career and I'm trying to write a book. And uh, and make money. Like, we're all on top of each other in that one week.
I was like, I can't do it. [00:18:00] But obviously the rest of the month I'm like, I might be able to do it.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: But I'm not like super confident, but I'm still, it's not that same feeling and I never noticed it when I was in a relationship, but that's how I feel that week before I ovulate.
Katie: Guess that must be because... You just leaned into it and there was somebody there to go, It's gonna be okay, I'll, I'll look after you.
Hannah: You distract yourself. Because your body's basically saying, put a baby in me. Yeah, yeah. It's like, this is the week, go on, go and get two.
Katie: We're ruled so much by our hormones, it's...
Hannah: And then the day after you ovulate, it's almost like your body goes... Well, you have missed out again. You did not get pregnant. And you have a bit of a downer. So you've had this, like, rollercoaster at high emotion, like, you're on the prowl, but not, you know, not on the prowl, because I'm on a ban.
Katie: Hashtag sex ban. [00:19:00]
Hannah: Hashtag sex ban. Um, and then the day after you ovulate, you're like, oh, wow. Like, you can have a real drop.
Katie: It's stuff like that that makes you think, we're such animals, aren't we? You know, like, we're just, we're the same as this little cat here, really. When we think about it.
Hannah: We are. It's like, how dare you, I'm not like you two.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Um, so yeah, that's been a really interesting observation. That, that that actually happens.
Um, so the summer has been pretty... Like, a bit of a rollercoaster, and yeah, I was getting in the sea every day, and after I had that panic attack, I was like, right, I'm going to go back to see my therapist and just check in. So yeah, I went back to see my therapist and I was telling him about the sex ban, I was telling him about getting in the sea every day, and he's like, wow, wow, that's a lot of rules.[00:20:00]
Katie: It is. Self imposed rules.
Hannah: He was like, um, a lot of control going on there, and. And that was just a bit of a lightbulb moment of being like, hmm, maybe I needed it during that period of the summer because it is fire season, right? Now we've moved into autumn, which in Chinese elements is earth.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Which is all about like, yeah, being grounded and being at home and being cozy and spending time with friends and eating together and doing like nice Just nurturing things whereas I feel like in fire season.
Katie: Mm hmm.
Hannah: I Had the potential to just go off
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: The charts crazy. And there was a lot of stuff going on at home and with my family That was bordering on a bit traumatic, well it was traumatic, but um, yeah whilst we were in that phase I probably needed that [00:21:00] structure and that kind of, these are the things I'm going to do just to keep myself on the straight and narrow so I don't spiral.
Katie: Yeah, and that was your way of coping.
Hannah: Yeah, but I hadn't really realised that until I'd sat in front of my therapist and talked it through with him. And I'm like, oh, this is what I've been doing. So then the next day I was like, I'm, I'm done with the dipping.
Katie: Yeah. Well, you don't need to do it every day. Like, it's amazing and you love it and it's your hobby, but to put that sort of pressure on yourself. That it has to be every day, otherwise you're breaking the streak and you're not doing it properly and all of that, I think is a lot, and you don't need any more pressure.
Hannah: Yeah, so I did it for 21 weeks, which in like, you know, if you're doing a mala, like a mantra or something, 21 is like the magic number for when it becomes special.
Um, and I had been working with this goddess called Mazu. Um, [00:22:00] she's huge in Korea. And the Philippines, I think. And probably Tibet as well. But um, she's like the sea goddess, so I've been working on a mantra with her. And then the fact that I got to 21 weeks was just like a moment of like, oh.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: And then I did the book launch with vicky and Anna for the ripple effect, and like, it just felt like a really lovely culmination. So after I'd done that... Oh, and I got stuck in a riptide.
Katie: Oh yeah.
Hannah: Which was a bit scary.
Katie: Yeah, it is scary.
Hannah: And I think about five of the lessons that I'd learned over that 21 weeks... All came back to me on that Saturday, and then I got stuck in the riptide and I was like, I feel like that was a sign to say, I think you're done.
Katie: Yeah, um, it's probably the sea reminding you of how powerful and scary it can be.
Hannah: Mm hmm. Um, and, yeah, so. Jambo, [00:23:00] you know Jambo, my yoga teacher who's been on before, he says your initiation is complete.
Katie: Oh, very good.
Hannah: So I've done my 21 weeks, that's your initiation and then, so the sea will always be there and always be probably a place that I will go to when I need clarity.
Katie: Uh huh.
Hannah: But I don't need to get in every day anymore.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: So relinquishing some of these rules and just leaning into what have I learned, what do I need. Um, how do I keep myself safe mentally and physically? Um, and so part of letting that go has made me think, okay, it's okay to let go of the ban as well.
We'll just see what happens. I don't know whether I will or not. But I'm certainly not going back on the apps.
Katie: I understand that.
Hannah: That's something I've learnt and decided that I definitely don't.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: I'm not in the right space for that, because it taps into my addictive [00:24:00] personality.
Katie: It can be very toxic and very addictive, and I feel like the way that they're set up is... The same way that, you know, the gambling, um, apps get you to spend more money, like the, um, all the notifications that you get and all the stuff that they promise if you spend money on there and the, like, just some of it's really toxic, I think, like, you gotta be really careful with it, and I think just, um, like, if you're gonna do it, have specific time that you carve out for it.
Hannah: I don't think I can. I honestly don't.
Katie: And actually, that's not the way that most people do it. So, everybody will be finding that strange. Like, if you don't reply to a message straight away, I guess it's not... Like, it's... Kind of seems like you're not interested, which is the opposite of the case for me. I just like to take it at my own pace and do it when I'm feeling like it.
Hannah: Yeah.
Katie: Which isn't necessarily [00:25:00] always good either, like everybody, the hotspot on dating apps is like 8pm on a weekday night, you know, when people have got nothing else to do.
Hannah: Sitting at home going, awww.
Katie: Wish I had a girlfriend, that's like.
Hannah: It's getting up for cuffing season as well, isn't it?
Katie: It is getting up for cuffing season, yeah, they're all wild.
Hannah: Is it wild? Yeah, I just don't think, I can't, it takes too much of my energy.
Katie: It's a lot.
Hannah: And I just know what I'm like now, I've learnt, and if I'm doing it the week that I'm ovulating I may as well just go on a date every night of the week.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Like it's too, I know that that's where my energy will go and I've got other things that I really want to do. And I'm just, I think I'm a bit of an old romantic now as well, I just want to meet somebody and maybe get to know them. And see what develops from there. Because otherwise I'm like, it's a full time job. I'm there going, I will meet you at three and I'll meet you at six. And, yeah.
Katie: It can turn into that, it really can.
Hannah: A batch date.
Katie: Yeah. [00:26:00] Um, which is, you know, efficient. Very good. Yeah. But like, it, like, it, but it also is what you make of it as well. So the second I feel like, I'm on them at the minute, but the second I feel like it's too much, I'm just gonna stop.
Hannah: Yeah.
Katie: Because, Like, it's not the only way to meet people, and I also think if it's affecting me badly then there's no point in doing it. The only reason that you do it is because you want to meet somebody, and if it's making you feel any sort of way apart from hopeful, then I don't think it's worth doing, you know?
Hannah: Mhm. I think my side of hopeful though is like... One of you's got to be alright, I'm going to meet you all.
Katie: Yeah, yeah. And that takes a lot of energy.
Hannah: It does, and you know what I'm like, all or nothing.
Katie: Yeah, yeah.
Hannah: Um, so yes, I have pulled back on the rules, but I'm definitely still not going on the apps.
Katie: Good, I think that's a good [00:27:00] place to be.
Hannah: It's good for me. Uh, but there's something else I did this weekend.
Katie: Yes, I want to hear about this. What did you do this weekend?
Hannah: So back at the beginning of. Sex ban. Hashtag sex ban. I, Becci, who was on episode 35 of the podcast, um, she put up a retreat that she was running, it was like a witchy retreat, on Friday the 13th of October, um, in line with the new moon, um, but the main feature of it.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: So Bexy, Becky is like sexy energy, right?
Katie: Yeah, Bexy energy.
Hannah: Bexy, yeah.
Katie: I do, I loved it, it was just great.
Hannah: So the title of the podcast was like how to awaken your sexual something or other, wasn't it?
Katie: Yeah, how to manifest sexual awakening or something like that.
Hannah: Sexual awakening, that was it.
Katie: And she, yeah, she's, she's wild. Loved it.
Hannah: Wild, right? Mm-hmm. In [00:28:00] fact, she's called Wild Luna on instagram.
Katie: Yeah. And that's appropriate.
Hannah: Yeah, definitely. . . So I was like, oh, that's really triggering.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: Like, and, sorry. And the main bit of the, um, retreat was called Shibari.
Katie: Right.
Hannah: Which is the art of Japanese rope bondage.
Katie: Ah, yes. Bondage.
Hannah: Not against a little bit of tying up, but I can't say I've explored it massively.
Katie: No? In BDSM way we mean?
Hannah: Well, that's what, so I had a little look around at the people that did it and I was looking at their Instagrams and I'm like, fuck, this is. intense. These are like models being really strung up and like hung from the ceiling in bondage. And I was like, Oh God, that's something else. I find it quite triggering.
Like I say, like, what is it about them that is, makes [00:29:00] them that confident that they could do something like that?
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: So I was like, this is the perfect time to go and investigate that trigger.
Katie: Yep. Good.
Hannah: So I signed up for the retreat knowing that I would still be on the ban. Um, and it was this last weekend.
Katie: Amazing. And so how did it go?
Hannah: Well, it was amazing. So it was a group of women. I think there was like maybe 15 to 20 of us.
Katie: That's quite a big group.
Hannah: Yeah. Um, Becci's style of yoga is amazing. Very sensual and sexy, but in a really nurturing, feminine way. So there was no, like, competition. It was just, we're all feeling into to our bodies.
Not like, feeling, but like, being what we want to be and that was all amazing. And then the actual Shibari was like... I mean, I'm still coming down from the impact of the weekend [00:30:00] because it completely blew my mind. I feel like I've had the universe explode in my brain and now my brain's trying to become back to the size of my head.
Katie: Right.
Hannah: You know, you get that feeling of like, I did not know that was available.
Katie: You've had your mind blown.
Hannah: I've had my mind blown. So I'll tell you what I learned. I've made some notes because, um, I don't want to mess it up, but, um, So, the whole point of this style of rope bondage is not to do anything to anybody, you tie the person up, and then you untie them.
Katie: Right, okay.
Hannah: So the art is in like, how you tie, learning the different knots, um, and the different...
Katie: Bit like scouts.
Hannah: Yeah.
Katie: Great.
Hannah: So, as a civil engineer, it like, perfectly matched with... The kind of thing I would like to do. It's like solving a problem.
Katie: Yeah. [00:31:00]
Hannah: And creating art. But then at the same time, the person who's being tied, it's almost like you're being wrapped up. And you can just drop out basically and just feel into the sensation.
Katie: When you sent me that picture of um... A girl that you tied up. Like, first my response was, Hannah, untie that girl! But then when I looked at it more, I was like, I bet that's a really nice feeling, to just have all of your limbs held in that position and be able to relax.
Hannah: Yeah, I mean it wasn't probably the most comfortable because I tied her hands behind her back. Yeah. And then I'd done this thing called a Futumomo, which is a fat thigh where you tie the Leg and the thigh together. Yeah, then attach the two to like this thigh to the back harness
Katie: Mm hmm.
Hannah: And then did something with her other leg.
Katie: Right. Yeah.
Hannah: Where it was being pulled up behind her.
Katie: Hannah, [00:32:00] let that girl go!
Hannah: You were saying that but actually she was like. You can just leave me here if you like. Like she was totally just in the zone of I don't know, feeling all just wrapped up. And then the, the actual, the really lovely bit is the untying, cause you can do it quite slowly and you kind of. dragging the ropes about and so you've got that sensation of the ropes being like on your skin.
So you're not really touching them, it's the ropes doing all the work.
Katie: Did you not get like rope.
Hannah: Well I've got a rigger finger.
Katie: Ah yes, rigger finger.
Hannah: So one of my fingers is all swollen because I kept using it to help me tie the knots. Yeah, so that's sore. Um, but yeah, so it's the act of like actually taking the ropes off that feels really amazing and I just loved the idea that you're doing this Tying up making the person feel all secure. Obviously you can use it in different [00:33:00] ways Which is more BDSM and like actual putting somebody in an uncomfortable position and playing around with how that makes the person feel.
Katie: Well and that's what people think of when they hear bondage, isn't it?
Hannah: Yeah, well apparently Western bondage you would only tie somebody up so you can then do something to them.
Katie: Right.
Hannah: Whereas this is literally, you're creating this piece of... You know, some of these women and men are put into positions that's almost like sculpture.
Katie: Mmm.
Hannah: And then you just untie them.
Katie: Mmm. Like almost acrobatic, I guess. Mmm.
Hannah: So, yeah, it was absolutely fascinating and I really loved learning how to do it. Um, and then I think over the course of the weekend, because there were lots of different workshops, I was like starting to feel into what my personality as the person doing it is. And it was from like a really compassionate place. So it was nothing to do with sex.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Like there is a sensation, like obviously [00:34:00] having the ropes like around, like dragging across your neck or wherever can feel really amazing.
Katie: Mm.
Hannah: But. The person, you're kind of holding space for the person that's being wrapped, so they can experience it however they want.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: And I did have one of the girls, like, when I untied her, she looked up and she was crying.
Katie: Oh, right.
Hannah: So she'd had like, a bit of a moment when she was in the position.
Katie: Mm.
Hannah: Uh, which took her to, she was like, it wasn't a dark place, but it was like, a place that I didn't know existed.
Katie: Right? Yeah.
Hannah: So I had to kind of hold that for her.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: When she came around to be like, oh, I hope you're okay. And I'm still check in with her now.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Unleashed something.
Hannah: Yeah. But I absolutely love that because, you know, that's something that I've learned in body work as well. When you are working on pressure points.
Katie: Mm-hmm.
Hannah: There's a chance that you'll release a trigger like some trauma.
Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hannah: Um, So, to me, like, it all [00:35:00] ties in. You do the wrapping up, you untie, and then you could do bodywork on somebody as well.
Katie: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah!
Hannah: So it was like an intense massage.
Katie: Yeah. I bet it did feel like intense massage. Yeah, I can imagine that.
Hannah: So I've ordered some ropes.
Katie: Good, right.
Hannah: I'm gonna, this is my new obsession, I'm gonna learn how to do it properly.
Katie: Mm hmm.
Hannah: Um, do you fancy it?
Katie: I mean, I suppose. Do I have a choice in this ?
Hannah: You do, yes. You absolutely do. I'm not tying anybody up that doesn't want to be.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Um, but yeah, I think for me I'm like, uh, I don't, because this was an all female space it felt really held and safe.
Katie: I think that's the only place where I would feel comfortable doing it.
Hannah: Yeah, and then I left and I was like, God, men would pay a lot of money for me to do this.
Katie: Right, so that's the next venture then, is it?
Hannah: But no, I'm thinking I need to not do it with men.
Katie: Yeah, I think so too, yeah. [00:36:00] This is your special thing, don't take it to the men.
Hannah: I know, right? But in my head, part of me was like, because I'm going into ovulation phase, I'm like, ooh.
Katie: No, no tying up men. Okay. Bondage ban. Hashtag bondage ban.
Hannah: Unless I'm with them.
Katie: No, not even then.
Hannah: I'm not even I'm like, what?
Katie: No, I think this is your special thing that you need to keep for you.
Hannah: I think you might be right. And because the other thing is. If you make the person cry, you might not want, necessarily, to hold that space for your partner.
Katie: Well, and it sounds like, from what you've talked about, it's just not about sex.
Hannah: No, it was deeply spiritual.
Katie: So I don't think you then want to take it into the sexy space, if that's how... You feel about it. It's more of a meditative thing.
Hannah: Yeah. I do think though that it could be used as like a really lovely way to be intimate with somebody.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: I think just be careful what you do. And the [00:37:00] fact that you can tie and then untie was like, oh thank god. Because sometimes you tie someone up and you're like, uh, now what? Now I've got to what, perform? I don't really know what I'm meant to do next.
I've only done that with one person. But it was still like, ooh, this is intense. I felt like I don't want to do it wrong.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Whereas with Shibari, it was like... The person's so much in their space that you can't really do it wrong. And if you're not sure what to do, take a minute and take a breath. And then see.
Katie: Yeah, so that sounds really spiritual. I don't think you need to involve any men in this. That's my thoughts.
Hannah: Okay, cool. Yeah, well at the moment I've got, um, a female friend coming over. I'm going to practice on her. Good. Trying to get the ropes. I keep doing this. Is it me? No, it's not you. Okay, good. It can be you if you [00:38:00] want, but I'm not going to force it on anybody.
Good. Um, but yeah, you do basically turn into a floppy mess. And then you just have to have a little sleep. I think you would actually love it.
Katie: I probably would, yeah.
Hannah: Um. But I understand that it is kind of out there. Well, your neighbours have started knocking, so it feels like a good time to kind of go...
That's all I've got to tell you.
Katie: Yeah, very good.
Hannah: That's all!
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Sex ban, not sex ban.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Stopping the dipping streak.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: Shibari.
Katie: Yep.
Hannah: Moving house.
Katie: Yep.
Hannah: Maiden.
Katie: Yeah.
Hannah: What are you gonna call this episode?
Katie: I have no idea. No, this has been great. I've enjoyed us doing a little catch up one. Yeah, me too. Like, we've needed this.
Hannah: Yeah, I think so. Every now and again it's like, oh, should we do a podcast together? Because I want to hear what's going on for you.
Katie: Yeah, that's nice.
Hannah: Lovely, well thanks Katie.
Katie: Okay, thank you.
Hannah: Thanks for hosting us.
Katie: Um, oh no problem, you're welcome anytime. [00:39:00]
Hannah: And um, yeah speak to you soon.
Katie: See you soon. Bye everybody.
Hannah: Bye.
