62 - Rob Biddulph
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Hannah: [00:00:00] Welcome to Happily Ever After, the podcast where we talk about life's big stories. From breakups and breakdowns, to icky secrets and happy endings, it's the stuff that makes us human. I'm your host Hannah Harvey. I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at mumsdays. com, that's M U M S D A Y S dot com I'd be really grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it basically means more people can find the podcast.
And I also really love hearing from you so please do contact me through Instagram @Mumsdays with any of your stories really and, and, you know, how you relate to the episode or even questions that you may want answering. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After. It's me, Hannah. And today I'm joined by someone who is as synonymous with lockdown as PE with Joe. [00:01:00] It's Rob Biddulph. Hi Rob.
Rob: Hi, hi. It's funny you should say that about Joe because you're right, you're totally right. I mean everyone would do PE with Joe at nine and then draw with Rob at ten. And I actually, a couple of years ago I was doing the, where was it, the Bath Literary Festival.
And Joe and I were on kind of consecutively, so I got to meet him.
Hannah: Oh my god!
Rob: We were like, we should have been on, you know, payroll, school payroll, because we were like doing childcare every morning in a, in a lockdown.
Hannah: You really were.
Rob: Yeah. But he's like, he's such a nice guy. He's such a nice guy.
Hannah: And yeah, well we took part in your, the largest online art lesson. Do you still hold that record?
Rob: I do. As far as I know, at least I do. I don't think anyone's broken it yet. And I still see, you know, I do my Live events now and kids bring their folders full of all the drawings that they did with me during lockdown and they've all Yeah, they've got their world record t shirts that they got and their certificates that I signed [00:02:00] for them and everything So it's still a. It still kind of looms large I think in people's lockdown memory, particularly the, the world record whale drawing and I love, I love to see it.
There's still a few when I go on the dog walk with my dog. I I still see a few kind of, they're quite yellowed now, but I still see a few of the kind of the whale drawings in people's windows and things. So it's lovely.
Hannah: Really? Wow. And so why did you start all that?
Rob: Well, it was literally, it was a, I can't tell you how, first of all, I can't tell you how surreal the whole draw with Rob phenomenon has been for me, right?
Because this is literally, I'll tell you how it happened. It was a Sunday night, I was sitting on the sofa watching the news with my wife, and they said on the news, so this was back in what, March of 2020, and they said, right, we're going to close the schools next week. And so I was, my first thought was, right, there's going to be lots of children at home looking for things to do.
You know, young children, my age group, the kids that read my books, you know, kind of key stage one kids. [00:03:00] They're at home looking for things to do. Actually, what I thought was there's going to be lots of parents of Key Stage 1 kids looking for things to give their children to do while they're at home. And I thought, well, I can help here.
At my live events, I always do a draw along of one of my characters. I've even done some video draw alongs before, and, you know, a few years previously. And I thought, what I'll do, I'll just draw, I'll just video myself drawing one of my characters, like, you know, maybe a couple of times a week. And it might keep kids busy for an hour or two, you know, in that week.
So that was the Sunday. The Monday I recorded the first video, the Tuesday I put it up on YouTube. And, I'm not joking, on the Wednesday so many thousands of people had watched this video that I was on news at ten that night. It was, I can't tell you how surreal it was. And I just started getting sent, you know, thousands and thousands of pictures of children holding up their drawings.
It was amazing, it was really amazing, because you remember what it was like. It was quite, it was a very uncertain time, there was lots of anxiety around. But my social media feeds just sort of became [00:04:00] these, this kind of like, you know, this joyous oasis of happy pictures in this kind of desert of despair and worry.
You know, I was getting sent these lovely pictures of children drawing and happy parents who were actually sitting down and drawing with their kids for the first time in, in years because they had time to do it. And so it just became, it just got bigger and bigger and bigger, this thing. And yeah, it became a bit of a runaway train, actually, I was just trying to do as many, do as many videos as I could during that first couple of years of lockdown, but it's great. I love it.
Hannah: The first couple of years. What fun we had.
Rob: Yeah. I'm still doing them now. I'm still doing the videos now. You know, not, not, not as regularly, you know, I do one every month, month or six weeks or something like that. And I still get thousands of people watching them and I get sent pictures every single day.
I get sent, I get sent quite a few drawings from kids still. So it's, that's what I really love because I think it's sort of started this , reawakening really in children about the simple pleasures in life. You don't have to sit in front of a [00:05:00] screen all the time, you know, you go.. That being said, you..
Hannah: You do, if you wanna do your thing.
Rob: I'm on a screen, but, but you know, they're actually doing something with their, with their hands and they're making, you know, they're starting with a blank sheet of paper and ending up with a drawing that they're proud of.
And I, and I feel really, I feel very proud of the fact that they're doing that. You know?
Hannah: Yeah. I think you should be. I was we used to cover the whole table with. Because at the time, my daughter was like 18 months old, so I'd cover the whole table with paper, and then we'd all sit down.
Rob: Yeah, you sent me a picture actually, it was great.
Hannah: And I was like, oh my god, I can draw!
Rob: I know!
Hannah: And it looks like Rob's!
Rob: Well, that's the thing, everyone, you know, so many people, all of my, when I do festivals and things, I say how many people don't think they're very good at drawing, all these hands go up.
And I said, well that's, Why do you think that? There's no, drawing's not like maths, right? There's no right or wrong answer with drawing, it's just all about, it's subjective drawing. You know, and if you look at some, you look at the great artists, if you go to the Tate Modern or something, you'll see so many different styles.
You know, yes, you see the renaissance art, [00:06:00] which is photorealistic, beautifully, you know, rendered paintings, but you also see all the kind of impressionist stuff, which is much more just about translating what the artist is feeling inside and putting it onto a piece of paper or a piece of canvas. And, and that's what we can all do that, you know, everyone.
Everyone can draw. I honestly do believe that. You know, it, I think a lot of it is about confidence, which is where with the Draw With Rob stuff, I come in because we do this, you know, the step by step drawing and then by the end of it, everybody has got something that maybe they didn't think they would be able to do because we've broken it down into bite sized pieces, but then, thereafter, especially with children, they kind of go off and they do their own drawings using some of the things, you know, the techniques that they've learned with me, but then they do their, they invent their own characters and stuff and that's what I really love. I'm sure your drawings were fabulous.
Hannah: Thanks, they were. No, I did, I really enjoyed doing it. And something I noticed with my son is he, he feels like he hates [00:07:00] art.
Rob: Right.
Hannah: Or at least he did around that period. And then just little bits of, you know, trying a few different things. Cause it's definitely confidence and the feeling like you have something that you'd even want to put onto paper that's worthwhile. So just breaking down the, the barrier to actually putting a pencil onto paper is huge.
Rob: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think one thing that happens as children get older, when they get to sort of about nine or ten, there's usually somebody in their class who is, you know, the good drawer. And I think, therefore, it's, you know, they, children, even at that young an age, they sort of apply labels to themselves.
And they, they, they tell themselves, actually, I'm, I can't draw. And then they just really, they stop. Sort of about 9, 10, they sort of stop really drawing for pleasure, which, you know, if you, if you see four or five year olds, they just pick up a crayon, they don't care, they just draw and they just love it and they don't care really what the picture looks like.
But as they get older and more self aware and self critical, that's when they [00:08:00] stop and I think that's a real shame. You know, I was having lots of adults were joining in with me during lockdown saying this is the first time I've picked up a pencil since I was Nine years old and they're really loving it again because it's about confidence and self expression and not feeling too critical of yourself, you know, just being kind of letting yourself kind of express whatever you're feeling inside and sticking it down on a piece of paper. So I think that's really, really important.
Hannah: Yeah, I totally agree. I feel like so it's been a few years since I read Peanut Jones and I remember that being a theme at the beginning of the first book.
Rob: Yeah. Yeah, I actually wrote it before lockdown. I actually wrote the first book before the first lockdown. But yeah, there's so many of the themes in that book kind of played out over lockdown really about the importance of art and expressing yourself and, you know, confidence in your ability to express yourself too.
Yeah, but the reason I started writing the Peanut Jones book, because basically you write, [00:09:00] well I do anyway, you kind of write from my own experience. I'm kind of where things that happen to me, that's what- they often make their way into my books. And the peanut thing started when my youngest daughter, Poppy, was first starting at school, proper, after nursery, she was really, really nervous about staying at school for lunch.
You know, you know what kids are like, you know, it becomes, they get obsessed with certain details. So she was kind of fine with doing, you know, staying at school to do her maths and English and all that stuff, but she was really worried about lunchtime. Because up until then, I think she'd always come home for her lunch.
So I decided on day one of school, I would draw her a little picture on a post it note and hide it in her lunchbox. So when it got to lunchtime she was feeling worried, there'd be a little message, a little picture and a message saying, Hi Poppy, from Dad, you know, making her feel better. And she came home from school after day one and she said, Dad I loved it, what are you going to draw for me tomorrow?
Hannah: Oh no!
Rob: Okay, I'm doing it again, okay, so I did one the next day. The next day she came home and said, Oh, I, not only did I love it, but all [00:10:00] of my friends and all of the teachers at school, they all want to know what you're going to draw tomorrow. So I was like, Oh my God. So then I drew the next day and the next day and the next day.
And you know what? I ended up doing a drawing every single day that she was at primary school for seven years. So I
ended up doing two and a half-
Hannah: That's like elf on the shelf gone crazy.
Rob: It was, there was two and a half, I've done two and a half thousand of these drawings. If, if your listeners want to, if you just search hashtag pack lunch post it, you will see, you know, the madness in full effect because it's crazy.
And I was sort of, at one point it went a bit viral. It was a weird thing, Ashton Kutcher, right, somehow saw it somewhere and retweeted it. And it just went mad. I was interviewed on ABC news about it. And so, you know, it just went properly viral. Another thing that went a bit viral and so because there's so many people seeing I was really putting effort in. I was really trying to make- I was posting them on my socials by this point
Hannah: Yeah
Rob: And so you see, you'll see I mean there was- The difficult thing was trying to think of [00:11:00] things to draw every day because after about one half term I'd drawn every single children's character I could think of so I used to do themes. So I remember one term I did, like, The Great Artists, I don't know why I thought that was a good idea, because, you know, what happens is, you sort of forget to do the drawing, right, and so you remember at half past eleven at night, just before you go to bed, and you're like, oh no, so I'm drawing, you know, the Mona Lisa, on a post, you know, at half past eleven at night.
But anyway, but anyway, I digress, because that's where the idea came from, because. Because often, these little things that happen in my life, you think, well, I know there's a story. That's a potential for a bigger story that I can write, in this case, a novel about. And so that's, that's, that's, that's how the peanut stories start, too.
You know, she's got a dad who does the same thing for her, but in the story, you know, her dad has mysteriously disappeared and there's a magic pencil where you know, whatever you draw with this pencil becomes real. So, of course one day she draws a door with this magic pencil and it becomes real and she finds herself in [00:12:00] an illustrative world .And yada yada yada, you know, this the whole story sort of comes out so you have your seed of an idea.
Hannah: And yours was the post its?
Rob: Yeah, that was the post its and then everything comes out of that before you know it, you know, I've written three novels about it. So, yeah, that's how, that's how these things start, at least with me anyway, you know.
Hannah: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that with Odd Dog Out, but we'll come to that.
Rob: Okay.
Hannah: Because, like, the first thing I was going to say is you're, like, super prolific.
Rob: I think so.
Hannah: You've got three books out this month.
Rob: Yeah, I have, that is true. Yeah.
Hannah: I mean obviously you didn't write them all at the same time. They just happened to be out at the same time.
Rob: Yeah, well, I'll tell you what that is because in children's book world and probably in all book world, of course, the autumn, September is prime publishing time because Christmas is around the corner and gifting and all that kind of stuff.
That's why I'm, you know, I go on tour in autumn, you know, I'm like. At the moment, I'm in the middle of this tour where I've, every single weekend between now [00:13:00] and I think the middle of November, I'm doing a different book festival somewhere in.
Hannah: I have noticed you are busier than Beyonce touring.
Rob: I am busier than Beyonce. My show, live show is very similar to Beyonce.
Hannah: Well, I thought it might be.
Rob: Slightly, slightly less dancing and singing, but yeah, I guess I'm prolific. I mean, my background, prior to doing this, I had like a 20 year. career working in magazines and newspapers. I was an art director, so I designed, you know, the NME and Just Seventeen.
I don't know if you remember Just Seventeen magazine.
Hannah: I remember it well.
Rob: I was the art director on that and The Observer, The Observer as well. And so I think I'm quite good at deadlines. I think I've had this training where you hit. You have to hit your print deadlines if you're doing a magazine or a newspaper, right?
And so I think my publishers seem to love me because I, I'm bang, bang, bang, I hit these deadlines because I'm quite efficient and quite fast. I think they-
Hannah: Thanks to 10,000 post-it notes.
Rob: Yeah, thanks. Thank God I finished the post-it notes. Now she.
Hannah: Oh, that's nice.
Rob: I don't do that. But yeah, I think because I'm quite efficient. My publisher tend to, [00:14:00] they, they sort of tend to rinse me a bit. Yeah. And they get me to do lot of books, which I like. I like to be busy and I love, you know, it's nice, you know, and my books are different. I do picture books. I do the novels and I also do the activity books. So they're all quite varied and you use slightly different part of your brain for each one.
But I am, you're right, I do have a lot, and they all seem to come out around the same time, but I do have a lot. I think four books, most years I'll be publishing four books and maybe illustrating a few bits and pieces for other people too. As well as doing, you know, the touring and the Draw With Rob videos.
So I have a busy year, but I love it. That's the way I like it to be.
Hannah: So I don't know whether you met James, but you know that I used to work at The Bound in, sorry, I should say Forum Books in Corbridge.
Rob: Forum Books, I remember.
Hannah: So, you hung out with Helen once and did a school tour.
Rob: I did. I had a day with Helen, that's right. Yeah.
Hannah: And so when I was chatting to James, who runs The Bound, he's the manager at The Bound.
In fact, he would have been at Forum when you came up. And he was like, ask Rob if there's anything he misses [00:15:00] from journalism. I bet it was wild in the 90s.
Rob: I'll tell you what, I'm sorry, it's Ringo and my dog is behind me, he's scratching around and making a noise. If you can hear it scratching around, it's not me sort of, you know, it's the dog, scratching the floor.
What are you doing? Behave yourself. Do I miss anything from journalism? Yeah, in the when I, my first job was Just Seventeen, which was really fun. I met my wife there, actually, she was the editor. But that was a really fun job, and the NME, when I was the art director on the NME, and sort of from about 2000 to 2005 ish that was really fun.
That was like going back to uni, really, because it was you know, there was, you can go to a different gig every night, and there was always cool parties and stuff to go to.
Hannah: I bet.
Rob: It was, it was really fun back then. And then I went to the Observer, which was much more kind of grown up and serious, but you were working with, you know, the best writers and photographers in the world, really, and doing really amazing, you know, long form pieces and that kind of thing.
And so I do miss it. I do miss, especially at the [00:16:00] Observer, you, it's a week every, you know, obviously hour every Sunday, so there's a nice routine to it, you know, the years. You could break the years up by, you know, Christmas gift guide and then fashion weeks and then, you know, summer holiday guides and that kind of thing.
And you would hit your marks every year. But. And I miss the people. That's what I miss. Because now I'm on my, you know, I'm here in my little studio on my own for half the time and the rest of the time I'm sort of out touring. So I've got a nice mix now, but I do miss... You know, the Monday morning around the coffee machine, sort of, gossiping about whatever's happened over the weekend, you know, I miss, I miss that.
And you know, the by, print, print journalism, people, unfortunately, you know, when I first started, you know, the magazines would sell hundreds of thousands of copies, and the newspapers, everyone was reading newspapers, and now. It's just not, the world's changed, hasn't it? Right? I mean, I hardly read a newspaper ever anymore.
I read online, you know, that's all we do. And so, it went from being a really, really exciting place to [00:17:00] work to being somewhere where you were slightly worried about your job at all times because they could close a magazine or a newspaper at any point. But that's not why I started doing children's books.
That was more, I just had this, I think I just had this creative impulse to be doing something that's coming from me. Because when you work with newspapers and magazines, you're part of a team. Which is great. There's loads and loads of great things about that. But, you know, I just wanted to, I had, I had ideas.
And I had things that I wanted to do from me. Making children's books actually is a really a really satisfying outlet for a creative person, I think. I often say it's a bit like being... You know, making a picture book especially is like making a film in lots of ways, you know, I get to write the script, I get to cast this film and I work on the plot and I get to do, you know, the lighting and that kind of thing.
And pretty much I do it all myself because I write and illustrate and I design the books. And what I do pretty much [00:18:00] makes it straight through onto a bookshelf and into, you know, thousands of people's hands. And that's quite, I think that's quite a rare thing for a creative person really. So I just found.
I decided, I did a bit of children's illustration at uni and I thought, you know what, I'm going to have a go at writing a kids book and and then the rest is history, you know, that was, that was, my first books nearly, came out nearly 10 years ago now and and here I am, you know, so that's a lot. My answers are very long winded, aren't they? I'm really sorry.
Hannah: No, it's lovely, I'm really enjoying hearing what you've got to say, because I could never predict what you're going to say, so it's really interesting. Because I was going to ask you, like. Why do you do what you do? And I guess it's come from that seed but I guess what's actually happened is still a surprise.
Like even when you start a book you don't know when you first start what's going to happen.
Rob: Well, well going right back to the beginning I guess the reason I the reason I made a very deliberate and conscious decision to [00:19:00] try and get a children's book published is because I was reading lots of books to my own children, bedtime stories.
And that's what, it kind of, I had a bit of an epiphany. You know, as I said earlier, they're such lovely things to make and they really are, you know, some of them are proper works of art. And I just had this epiphany and was like, this is such a nice thing to do, I'm really going to have a go at doing it.
But it did take, I mean, it did take me a lot. I didn't realise how competitive that world is. I'm sure you know people who've tried to write children's books and maybe not been published, maybe some people have been published, but it's unbelievably competitive. It took me five years to get my first book published and I got an agent straight away.
I got in the room with every big publisher in London, you know, almost immediately. So I knew I was good enough, but I just could not get that first book over the line because it's so... competitive. And I really didn't realise that. And eventually, you know, it was one of those things. My first book was called Blown [00:20:00] Away, which was about a little penguin who flew a kite and got blown away across the sea.
And that came about very quickly, purely by chance. I was taking other books around to publishers, and two or three publishers happened to spot this little drawing I'd done of a penguin in my portfolio that I can't even really remember doing. And they said, we love that character, can you come up with a story for him?
So I did, and wrote it in about a week, and that's when I finally got book offers. You know, the book contract offers, and I signed a three book deal with HarperCollins. And then once you're on the conveyor belt, once you're over that first hump, you're kind of away, as long as your books are good and people like your books.
You're kind of, you're kind of away. But it did yeah, it did take a long time. And so. I have loads, I have lots of people now, friends of friends, or friends on Facebook, or people just send me emails with their children's books, you know, so if you think about it, virtually every illustrator that's been to art college has tried to illustrate a children's book at one point, [00:21:00] and you know, as I said, I know lots of people who try to, particularly picture books, try to write picture books, and and that's when you realise just how competitive this world is, because I mean, it is a lovely thing to do.
And I feel, I feel super lucky to be doing it full time. You know, this is my job. The vast majority of even published children's authors, you know, they have this something they do in their spare time because it's very hard to make enough money to make a, to make it your kind of full time job. So I feel super, super lucky to be able to, to do that.
You know, talking earlier about being so busy, I'm very lucky to be that busy and I'm very aware of that. I think probably more aware of it because I've had another career beforehand. And also, you know, as I said, it was a struggle to get published. So I do feel, I do feel lucky to be doing it. But it's a lovely, you know, now that I am doing it, it's lovely.
I get to come to fabulous bookshops all over the country and meet children in bookshops, meet the booksellers, do the festivals, you know [00:22:00] go to schools, visit lots of schools and that kind of thing as well as sitting here and drawing sausage dogs for a living, you know, what's not to love?
Hannah: So speaking of sausage dogs, I have this notebook.
Rob: Oh, look at that.
Hannah: Yeah. I've put in the front of it. So this is 2017. I bought this
Rob: Right.
Hannah: From forum books, it's still got £3.60 written on the back. You couldn't buy one of your books for that now.
Rob: No. That's very reasonable.
Hannah: No way.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am not in charge of pricing. I just want to put that out there. You don't blame me.
Hannah: Not at all. And I've even put in the front of it, I found this this morning, Hannah's children's book. So obviously everybody has a go.
Rob: Ah, so you've had a go at writing then?
Hannah: I've had a go at writing a chapter book. So yeah, and that was around 2017 when I started and I probably finished it in 2020.
Rob: Oh, did you? And? So what have you done with it? Have you sent it off [00:23:00] to...
Hannah: Absolutely nothing.
Rob: This is the thing. The hardest bit is pressing send.
Hannah: I don't even know who to send it to, because I feel like it's not finished.
Rob: Okay, well I'm going to tell you who to send it to. People don't know, but the way, the way, your road, your route into being a published author is pretty much, 90 percent of the time, you know, you get an agent, first of all.
So you send it out to literary agents, you just Google literary agents, children's literary agents, you'll find a load. You send it out to them, they all, they read all submissions. It might take them a few months. And then if they like, they see potential, then you will work with your agent on editing and getting it into shape before they then submit it to publishers on your behalf.
And your agent will take 15 percent of whatever they make for you, but honestly, they do all the negotiating, they do all that kind of stuff. So, there are people who are un agented who make it happen. But I would say that easily the best way to do it is to send [00:24:00] it out to an agent, because then you've got someone in your corner and someone to work with.
And I mean I think the first time I sent it out I didn't think, it was finished, my first text, I think I sent two texts, finished, but they weren't perfect. And it is very scary, pressing send, it feels very, this is your baby, right, you've spent years writing this, and it's very exposing to send it out to somebody.
But. At some point, if you do really want to become published, you have to take that leap, and don't, I mean, I rarely-
And it's scary, it's very scary, but you should do it, I mean, that's what, the vast majority of people who email, they haven't finished writing it, they've started but haven't finished, and then the ones that have. They're too scared to send it out to anybody.
So they will send it to me though, weirdly. They'll send it to me.
Hannah: Yeah, because you've got loads of time.
Rob: I've got loads of time. But they won't send it to the person that matters, which is an agent or a publisher. Because either way, you need to know whether, you know, I mean, maybe that's why, maybe [00:25:00] they don't do it because they don't want, they fear, people probably fear being rejected.
If it's been a dream for a long time, they don't want somebody to say, you're not good enough.
Hannah: Do you know what? I think there's two fears. One is, it's shit. The other is, it's really good and you're going to be successful and you're going to have to go on the tour.
Rob: Is that scary?
Hannah: Do you not think? That's terrifying.
Rob: I didn't know about that when I got, I had no idea about going out on tour thing. I literally got my, I signed my book deal and they told me about a week later, right, you've got to develop an act and go out on the road. And I was like. Excuse me?
Hannah: An act.
Rob: An act. I mean, we do, a few. My events, it's a show, it's an hour long show, there's film and there's music and there's all, you know, it's a proper show.
Now it is. At the beginning, it was much more basic and over the years I've learned what kind of works. But I was, I was the kid at school, I was never in the plays at school, I was never on stage, I did the posters for the plays, that was my job. [00:26:00] So the idea of standing on a stage and talking to hundreds of, sometimes thousands of kids. Yeah, if you'd have told me that before I'd started this journey, I probably would have, maybe I would have not done it as well.
But actually it turns out it's one of my favourite bits, standing up on stage. The bigger the audience, the better now for me. And I really love it because I'm talking about what I know, right? And also with me, it does help the drawing, right? So when I draw, I always draw quite early on in my shows and I think the children. Children think drawing is a bit of a superpower.
So once they see you can draw, you've got them on side, right? It's kind of quite cool. But yeah, you're right, I mean it is a, yeah, you do, you know, you have to go out on tour. What age group do you write? Adults or children?
Hannah: I've got two actually, so one book I'm writing is called How to Divorce Sober, so that's my non fiction memoir.
And then the book that I had written, which was part of the process of [00:27:00] helping me get through those last few years of marriage. That one is like, mid grade. Right. So, yeah.
Rob: Well, quite often the middle grade, middle grade books, and certainly your- the divorce kind of, help book you would, your events would be much more kind of like this, just a conversation, Q& A on stage, which is fine, right?
That's not scary. That's fine. I'd be really happy if I was sitting on stage with somebody just chatting away like this. Fortunately for me, for picture books, and for my middle grade books, that never happens. It's just me on stage doing the thing. But honestly, I love it. And you do this podcast, and you're great at talking to people.
You'd be a total natural. Shouldn't be scared of that.
Hannah: Do you not get stage fright?
Rob: Weirdly, no. No. It's really weird. I cannot believe I'm saying this to you. I mean, when I was working in magazines, they asked me to, you know, go to conferences and talk to people, and I always said no, because I [00:28:00] was like, I don't want to be up on the stage.
But now, I'm, I'm such a massive show off, I love it. I really do. But I think it's because I have my show. I've got it, I know it so well, I know the funny bits, I know when the punchlines hit, and I've got my PowerPoint up on a big screen behind me with all my slides, so I've kind of. And that helps, because the eyes are usually on that, because I've got so many illustrations and funny pictures of me when I was a kid and that kind of stuff, that sort of takes the pressure off me a bit.
And because I've been doing it for so long and I know, you know, my act changes every year a little bit with the books, but the thrust, the main sort of thrust of it is pretty much the same. And so I feel very, you know, before I go on stage, I feel confident that they're going to like it. You know, I really do, because they have done in the past. So, I really like it. Honestly, it's great.
Hannah: I think as well it's being totally aligned with what you want to do, like what you were saying before about you wanted this creative outlet because that's [00:29:00] you. And so because you're on it, it then makes talking about it and connecting with people so much easier.
Rob: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. If I had to go on tour and talk about, you know, the cold war, there might be a different kettle of fish, but I'm talking about stuff I know, and it's all about me and my life and my career. And so, as you can tell, I talk a lot about myself. I'm quite good at it. Well, I don't know if I am good at it, but I talk a lot.
Hannah: Did you have to go through a process of being like, Oh, I'm a show off? Were you just like, Yeah, it's fine.
Rob: Not, really. No, I don't know if it's showing off. I mean, that's kind of...
Hannah: I say it's, I say it's called showing off because that's how I feel it is.
Because when you're a kid, you know, and you get pulled up and you're like, stop being a show off. And I'm like, Oh, but I am.
Rob: Well I, I used the word, I said earlier didn't I? I said I'm, it turns out I'm a big old show off. But I [00:30:00] guess it's just, you know, the kids want to know, you know, my late, the late, the show that I'm doing starting this autumn is basically, because you have to think of ways of sort of structuring the show, so it's, because I like to have a beginning, a middle and an end.
So the way I've structured this one is, I basically answer, answer the five questions that I get asked the most, because I get sent. I get emails every day and I get lots of letters and you know, school events, hands go up. So I basically worked out what the five most popular questions are and I've managed to structure my show around that and make it quite funny, you know, and that kind of thing.
You know, for example, the first question that I, the most popular question I get asked is to say, where's Ringo, my dog, because Ringo makes a little bit of noise.
Hannah: Where's Ringo?
Rob: Why haven't you bought Ringo? They basically like Ringo much more than they like me. So I have this whole bit at the beginning about, you know.
But yeah, so it's, it's sort of, I don't, I feel like I'm just giving them what they want. You know, what they want to know where Ringo is. They want to know what pens I use in my [00:31:00] videos. They want to do a draw along with me, live, which we always do a draw with, an episode of Draw With Rob, live, which is great.
And and then I read them, read them one of my stories. And I tell, oh, they want to know how I got this job. So I have this whole bit of, you know, pictures of me when I was their age, and drawings I did at their age, and it's, you know, it's all very self deprecating and taking the mick out of myself, really, and they love that.
But I think it, I'll tell you what really helps with the live stuff, and you won't even know that you're good at it, but you will be good at it. Children's parties, right? If you had loads, I bet you've had loads, you've had a house full of like 30 kids at some point, and you're playing pass the parcel.
Hannah: Many times.
Rob: Right? So you know how to talk to groups of children. You just do. Because I, that's, honestly, I am so used to taking the mick out of all my daughter's friends at parties and stuff. And you work out, you don't talk down to children. You just sort of, I always treat them like... Adults, you know, sort of rib [00:32:00] them, take the mickey out of them, and kids love that.
And so you'll be, I bet you'll be, you would be really, really good at it. Because, because you've had lots of practice, whether you know it, you realise it or not. I'm full of admiration for children's authors that go out on tour that don't have children. You know, they might be in their twenties, and yet they're still really good at it.
Because I don't think I would have been pre children. I wouldn't have been anywhere near as good as I am with talking to kids as I am as a result of having children of my own.
Hannah: Do you not think children's authors maybe never grew up? A little bit.
Rob: Oh yeah.
Hannah: Because I still feel like I'm a little bit 12.
Rob: Yeah, totally. I'm definitely, I am like 90 percent 10 year old still.
Hannah: Yeah. Like I was at a kids party yesterday and I literally spent the whole time in soft play. And whenever I'm on the beach, I always end up with like, a gang of kids all digging in the same direction.
Rob: We were out on Saturday night, we went to a friend's house for [00:33:00] dinner.
And we didn't have that, my girls didn't want to come, of course they didn't, they're like 14.
Hannah: That's so old.
Rob: They didn't want to come. But there, but my there was two other couples there and they've got younger kids. And so the kids were all there playing football in the garden. And the grown ups were talking about, their big jobs in the city and all that stuff. I was playing football with the kids. You know, that's what I like. But definitely you, I mean, I think in order to write for children as well, you have to be able to tap into that, that part of your, your brain, the, you know, the part of your brain that is five or ten years old.
You know, that's just what you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My dad's like that. My dad's still like that. He's like a big kid. And, you know, I think it's great.
Hannah: Definitely, it's much better than being a grown up.
Rob: Yeah, grown up's rubbish.
Hannah: But you do still have to.. Because I'm thinking about Odd Dog Out, and so, that's probably the first time I came into contact with your books. And it wasn't because of Tom Hardy.
Rob: Oh, really? You say that. You say that.
Hannah: It was before he read it [00:34:00] on CBBC.
Rob: Right, okay, okay. My wife is still so cross with me about that. She was like, Why could I not get an invite to the filming?
Hannah: Why didn't you tell me?
Rob: Why didn't you tell me? I was like, I didn't, I knew he was doing it, but they didn't, I wasn't allowed to go to the filming.
I'm really sorry. But yeah.
Hannah: I mean, how cool is that?
Rob: It's pretty cool, isn't it? It is pretty cool. And he read it so brilliantly. To the point where now when I read it at my events, I try and do..
Hannah: You try and sound like him.
Rob: I try and replicate kind of his cadence, you know, if I can't replicate what he looks like, unfortunately, but I can replicate his kind of cadence.
But yeah, he is very cool. And I've had, I think I've had like five of my books have been CBeebies, bedtime stories actually. Tom's read two of mine.
Hannah: I think maybe you have yes. All of them.
Rob: It's not quite all of them, but Tom has, Tom, because I call him Tom, because we are, we are mates. We've had. We've had a bit of banter on Instagram, so I think that means we're mates, right?
He's read two of mine. He's read Odd Dog Out and I did a Christmas Odd Dog book called An Odd [00:35:00] Dog Christmas and read that as well a couple of years ago. And I've also had Chris Kamara you know, the football pundit.
Hannah: Yes, I've seen that one as well.
Rob: You've seen that one? Yeah. And I've had Mark Bonner, who's an actor, and Rick Astley read one of mine, that was quite fun.
Hannah: The one and only.
Rob: But none of the, I mean, I must say Tom's, Tom. My friend Tom's delivery is on point.
Hannah: So are you planning an Odd Dog Out Easter, Halloween, what else can we have? Summer holiday, just so we can get your mate back on.
Rob: Yeah, my wife is telling me just write Odd Dog Out books, just in case I get to go to the filming one day.
I don't know, I know I probably won't do any more Odd Dog Books actually. But the Tom Hardy factor was huge, it was a big deal, you know, people. Mums, I will, I'm going to say it, lots of mums got to know my books because of the Tom Hardy stuff, but that's fine.
Hannah: But genuinely, I didn't, it wasn't him.
Rob: Okay, I [00:36:00] believe you.
Hannah: I did, I mean, I've got this from, I think the date I've put in here is the 21st of March, 2017, so that's before he was on.
Rob: That is before, okay, right.
Hannah: But yes, I yeah, I think reading that book. I don't know, it just kind of blew my mind because it was so, there was such lovely messages in it that I just wasn't expecting.
So the whole thing around, it felt like you were dealing with prejudice, racism, how to be yourself all in one, like small amount of words.
Rob: Well, that was, yeah, that was kind of the idea really, it started, it started very, again.
Hannah: Yeah, where did, how did it start? Was it theme, character, or? I need to tell a story about racism.
Rob: It was, it was, I'll tell you what, in my head it was, it wasn't really racism so much as like, homophobia actually. That's why I gave the dog the rainbow scarf.
Hannah: Okay.
Rob: But it was, it was, it [00:37:00] was, it was about, I'll tell you how it started. Poppy, youngest, again, when she was... Starting, first starting at school, maybe in, maybe in year one by this point, there was a big to do about packed lunchboxes, right?
About three of her friends had the same packed lunchbox. I can't remember, I think maybe Dora the Explorer or something like that. And Poppy had a different one and she was very upset about this. She wanted the same as everyone else so that she could be part of the gang and fit in. So I sort of sat there and said, do you know what Poppy?
It's much better to be yourself, you know, blaze your own trail, be who you are, and you don't need to, you know, just follow the crowd, you know, be yourself. And I was like, this is, that's a really, really important message for children, right, at that young age. And and so I decided, yeah, I decided to put it into a story.
And I decided quite early on that it was going to be set in a world that was entirely populated by sausage dogs. Now that's the, that's the slight leak, right? I don't know why that. I think I just liked drawing sausage dogs, right? [00:38:00] And I just thought that's a good, good thing to do. And then pretty soon the title came, Odd Dog Out.
I thought, well, that's a nice, catchy title. And and then the story really is, occasionally you have it that the story just comes really really quickly and really easily, it just sort of pours out of you. Sometimes it takes, you know, six months to write a text that takes, you know, five minutes to read.
It's, you know, it's getting the rhyme working and everything, but Odd Dog Out came very very quickly, which I think is a good sign. And yeah, it really has resonated with, out of all of my books, that's the one I think that's resonated with the most people. I was in Russia. I did, in 2018, so before all this horrible stuff, I did a tour of Russia, I went to Moscow and St. Petersburg and book festivals and schools and things in Russia, and I was at the Moscow Book Festival with Odd Dog Out, I did a reading of it for, with the parents and kids, and then we did a signing afterwards, and I had this huge signing queue, and interestingly there were lots of, [00:39:00] there were some kids in the queue, but there were lots of adults.
And it turns out there was quite a lot of gay people in my queue who really were saying to me, you know, with tears in their eyes, you don't understand how important this book is for us and for our children. Because to be gay in Russia is not, I don't think it's illegal to be gay, but it's certainly illegal to be demonstrative of the fact that you're gay.
And so my book really... Skated a kind of, it was a thin line between it being published and it being banned. Because it wasn't overtly pro gay enough to get banned. But the message in there, whether it's, you know, whatever it is that people think it's about. It's about difference, right? It's about the fact that it's not bad to be different.
It's more important to be who you are. Whether that's to do with your race or your... Gender or your sexuality or whatever it is. It's about accept acceptance [00:40:00] and honestly I. My wife was with me on that tour and both of us were in tears at the end of this Festival because so many people were just saying it's so important And you know, you write these books with these messages in them and you hope that it lands with people. But you know, it works on both levels.
Some people just think it's a nice story about sausage dogs, you know but you hope that it lands and see it land in such a such a such an extraordinary way over in Russia was, was incredible. And it makes, makes the whole thing, it makes everything so, so gratifying, you know, and worthwhile to think that you are doing something no matter how small to help people be who they are, it's a lovely thing.
So it's lovely to hear you, to hear you saying that you had that reaction to the book too, because it means, it makes me think, ah.
Hannah: Yeah, and feel like everybody can take their own version of what it means to them.
Rob: Yeah,
Hannah: Really good. So to sort of -coming towards an end, thank you so [00:41:00] much for coming and chatting to me. But what do you think was the hardest thing you've had to come, like, overcome? I guess you could, it could be... Through your publishing career, but also, I guess, life, parenting. It sounds like you've had a few challenges within...
Rob: I've had a few challenges, I've had a few challenges. Well, parenting, and parenting and relationships. They're really tricky. They can be really tricky, can't they? You have to really work through them. I'm very lucky that Ali, my wife and I have had, I mean, we had a difficult time. We had a very difficult start to our relationship, because Ella, my oldest, is, so she's my stepdaughter, so Ali had Ella when I met her. And she was in, you know, various kind of tricky situations with relationships and that kind of thing, so it was quite a sort of, difficult and slightly messy start to our relationship, and because there was a child involved at the beginning, there was, I had, [00:42:00] Obviously not really, lied to my wife, but there was quite a few kind of commitment issues.
I think at the beginning I was quite young. I'm a bit younger than her. I was quite young. And if I was going to commit to this relationship, then I really had to be sure that I was able to commit 100 percent because there was a child involved, right? And so, so that's probably in my life, the most difficult part of my life, I'd say when I first got together with my wife.
Of course, once I then did manage to commit fully to this relationship, it was, everything suddenly became very easy again. You know, so I was kind of like, you know, I was, I was, it was me versus myself in that kind of situation. And it was tricky and it was tricky, you know, you still have every, every relationship where you have ups and downs, you know, I've got three daughters of quite, you know, it's quite a wide age span there.
So it's like, you know, and they each have, you know, children, like everyone else. Each child is different, each child has their own little foibles and their own kind of challenges. But we've been very lucky with our kids and we've [00:43:00] managed to kind of steer them through life so far pretty, pretty well.
But I just think life is a one big challenge, right? It's one big kind of series of obstacles that you have to overcome and somehow maintain your sanity and your happiness as well as your... career, you know, your ambition and that kind of thing. But I think my wife and I, we're a quite good team. You know, when I first left the Observer newspaper, which I had this really good job on the Observer, I've been there for ten years, but I decided I wanted to take the leap to do children's books full time.
My wife was freelance, she's a journalist too, she was the editor of Just Seventeen, that's how I met her. Freelance journalist. She took a full time job having been freelance for a long time in order for me to sort of switch. So I would do the school runs and look after the kids and that kind of thing while I was working at home on the books and she would take a full time job.
So it's been quite a nice, we've sort of dovetailed quite nicely in [00:44:00] terms of careers and childcare and that kind of thing. Sort of by design but also sort of by luck really as well and and it's kind of worked. You know, touch wood, so far it's worked quite, quite well. Yeah, I'd say that beginning part of my relationship with my wife was the trickiest part of my life.
Much trickier. You know, you then compare that to trying to get a book deal, which at the time seems huge and, you know, I had many days of despair that it's never going to happen and that kind of thing. Because in a way, with me, it was harder being so close, getting very close to being published early on, and then not being published for years was worse than just getting them straight no, I think.
But, I think when I compare that to, you know, the difficult decisions you have to make at the beginning of your relationship with a child involved, it sort of pales into insignificance, really.
Hannah: And do you have any, so you've got older kids than me [00:45:00] now, any parenting advice? Like I'm pretty scared about having a teenage girl, I'll tell you that.
Rob: Have I got any parenting advice. I mean, you know, it sounds very, very obvious, but you just keep it up, keep a dialogue open with your children at all times, you know, all times, you know, we try and, How old are your kids again?
Hannah: I've got an 11 year old son and a 4 year old daughter.
Rob: So has your 11 year old started at secondary school?
Hannah: He's just started.
Rob: So did you give, has he got a mobile phone?
Hannah: He does, yeah.
Rob: Has he had a phone for a little while?
Hannah: He got it for his 11th birthday.
Rob: Oh ok, same as us. Ours got the phone when they went to secondary school.
Which I think is... Very important that they don't have a phone before that, because, you know, then they're, they're sort of in this other world, right. But, but secondary school, you know, our kids, 10, 15, no half an hour journey to secondary school. We wanted them to have a phone, you know, for the journey to school and stuff.
And [00:46:00] then it's just about trying to manage their- I mean, the trickiest thing really these days with parenting is their online life, right. Versus real life. You know, you really, I don't have any magic, magic. answers to how you, how you police that, but we were very much like, right, the phone stays downstairs when you go to bed at night, you know, that kind of thing.
Because we have had one or two instances with my older two, especially of not, it's not bullying exactly, but like, particularly seems to happen with, I don't have any boys, so I don't know what it's like with boys, but with girls, there's a lot of friendship issues that happen at school where somebody gets left out and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Hannah: Yeah.
Rob: So we've, we've had a lot of that. But as I say, keeping a dialogue open and just being very open with them and hopefully they are, they, they are trusting of you enough to kind of confide in you when there are these problems. I think that's the best thing you can do.
Just try and be there for your kids, which everyone tries to [00:47:00] do, right?
Hannah: Mm-hmm. .
It's the balancer, isn't it? You're like, right, I'm really throwing myself into work, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, I haven't cleaned any clothes.
Rob: Yeah, oh yeah.
Hannah: There's a packed lunch that I've forgotten about, or apparently it was swimming today.
Rob: Oh, that, right, that happens all the time, right? That happens all the time, and that's normal, and that's the kind of, you know, I guess the key is to not blow those things out of proportion and give yourself too much of a hard time about all that kind of stuff, right?
Hannah: Yeah.
Rob: I don't know, we just, you know.
We're all just doing the best that we can, right? And, you know, at the end of the day, you just want your child to be happy, to be socialised. To be, you know, I kind of think, you know, I have friends who are really, they're proper, like, helicopter parents. They're, like, always, like, on the shoulder of their child, like, do this, do that.
They're tutored to within an inch of their lives when they're kind of, like, ten years old or whatever. And you kind of, I do, I mean, great, each to their own. But I kind of think. It's all [00:48:00] very well being, you know, maximising how good you're going to be at maths and English and that kind of thing.
But it's much more important, I think, particularly at primary school age, to be socialised, to have friends, to know how to talk to people. And I kind of almost think that all the way through school, actually, one of the main things that you learn, and one of the main jobs of a parent, is to make their child a nice, kind, thoughtful person that goes out into the world. Because no matter how much tutoring and what, how brilliant the school that you go to is and what, how brilliant your exam results are and whether you get into a red brick university, at the end of the day, you're going to be doing a job with other human beings and people will judge you on the things that you say and you do and the way that you act, you know.
So, I think that's our main job as parents, to You know, make decent human beings.
Hannah: All you [00:49:00] have to do is make a decent human.
Rob: There you go. Job done. Tick.
Hannah: Tick. Read Rob's books to them and that'll help as well.
Rob: That's what we should do. That's what I should have said. Yeah, that's my answer. How to be a good parent. Just read all of my books
Hannah: I've put all the pearls of wisdom into them.
Rob: They have. They're all distilled. All wisdom distilled into my little books about sausage dogs and penguins. There you go.
Hannah: Well, so you've got Peanut Jones out. Is it the end of the week? Do you like my pencil?
Rob: That's so good. Oh, is that one of those ones with the multi coloured tip?
Hannah: Yeah, it's got a multi coloured..
Rob: Yeah, they're good.
Hannah: Obviously, I've never used it, God forbid.
Rob: No.
Hannah: But I'm very much looking forward to the third instalment.
Rob: Third and final one. Yeah, you're right, it's out this Thursday.
Hannah: Yes.
Rob: At the time of recording. Is Thursday coming?
Hannah: This is going to go out tomorrow.
Rob: Oh is it? There we go. It's out in a few days time. Yeah, and it's the final installment of the trilogy. So Yeah, I'm looking forward to see what people think.
Hannah: I'm excited about [00:50:00] that.
Rob: You know, you always worry that you won't stick the landing with these things. Especially when the book's been a popular book, the first two books.
Hannah: Mainly down to me, I have hand sold so many copies of that book.
Rob: Really? I actually, I did hear that it was mainly down to you. Huge gratitude and thanks.
Hannah: Yeah, so you're welcome. Even the other day, I went into The Bound with Nancy to go buy a book, and then a woman was like looking around and she was, and I was like, are you okay? I wasn't working, I was just in the
shop.
And she was like, I'm just trying to find some books for my kid. She's like, she's just turning 10. And I was like, well, get these two. And it was like the first two of yours.
Rob: Oh, that's so amazing. I mean, booksellers are just the best people ever. In my experience, I don't think I've ever met a' not lovely' bookseller.
They're such nice people. I always think bookshops seem like the nicest ever place to work, personally, I think. That's what I would like to do. If I wasn't doing this job I think I'd go and work in a bookshop.
Hannah: Go work in a bookshop, yeah, it is lovely. Definitely.
Rob: Thank you so [00:51:00] much. Thank you so much for hand selling my books.
Hannah: Very, very welcome. It's a pleasure. And it's genuine, like I wouldn't...
Rob: Yeah, you wouldn't try and hand sell them if they were rubbish I suppose.
Hannah: I'm like, don't get that one.
Rob: Yeah, yeah.
Hannah: Shh, don't tell anyone. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate speaking to you, Rob.
Rob: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Hannah: I should say thank you to Louise who's a mate of mine from years back who you were on her thing called Want Need Wear Feed
(You can find Louise on Instagram @want.need.wear.feed)
Rob: oh yes, yes.
Hannah: And that's how the link happened because she had tagged me in a thing saying that she'd found peanut jones because of me. Obviously.
Rob: Because of you, there you are.
Hannah: Yeah, it helped this connection happen so I'm really appreciative for that little bit of divine intervention.
Rob: I'm very glad to have met you, it's been really fun.
Hannah: Yeah, well thank you ever so much.
Alright then, thank you so much for listening and I'll see you again next time for another [00:52:00] episode of Happily Ever After with me, Hannah.
It would be amazing if you could leave a review and subscribe and of course if you've got a friend who might enjoy this. Please do pass it on. For anything else you can get in touch with me through Instagram @mumsdays or by my website mumsdays.com and did you know that I've got a newsletter so it's the best way to stay in touch and to make sure you don't miss any podcasts or any freebies or competitions that we're running and again you can sign up to that through the website.
