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Hannah: Welcome to Happily Ever After the podcast where we talk about life's big stories from break-ups and breakdowns to icky secrets and happy endings. It's the stuff that makes us human. I'm your host, Hannah Harvey. I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at mumsdays.com. That's M.U.M.S.D.A.Y.S dot com. I'd be really grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also really love hearing from you, so please do contact me through Instagram @Mumsdays with any of your stories really and you know how you relate to the episode or even questions that you may want answering. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
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Hannah: Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah. And today I'm joined by
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Katie: It's me, Katie.
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Hannah: Creepy. Katie, Thanks for coming in again.
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Katie: Yeah, no problem. Lovely to be here.
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Hannah: Yeah. So those who if you're new, Katie helps me produce a podcast with Lewis who's out the back and every now and again we I basically talk through my feelings and Katie listens.
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Katie: Yeah. And I stick my oar in sometimes as well. Yeah.
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Hannah: You give your feedback and you share your own experiences because obviously mine are coming from the mother's perspective and yours is the pre mother.
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Katie: Yes.
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Hannah: some of the time, which I always find very. Interesting because it's like me before seeing if the opinions are different. But anyway, I digress. So the last time we were talking together, I had been getting in the sea every day and I didn't know why.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: But I just had this crazy urge that once I'd done it a couple of times, that I just wanted to keep doing it. Um, and you know what? I think it's since I got divorced, I've become a lot more into things like the universe, and I guess it's trying to make sense of. The world and what's going on. From a more spiritual perspective. Um. Does that make sense?
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Katie: Yeah, it does. And I think that's the kind of thing you do reach out for spirituality and making sense of things when you're going through a hard time, which you were when you were going through your divorce. So I think that makes sense.
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Hannah: And yeah, so I got my the final paperwork a few months ago and I feel like that was massively significant, getting the piece of paperwork and saying it's finally over because it meant I'm moving from the conflict stage to what's the rest of my life going to look like? And it's really fucking scary.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: I'm still trying to work it out because my reference point prior to being in a relationship is, you know, a 20 odd year old just messing around and not really doing anything, um, or nothing matters because you're invincible at that age and you can do whatever you wanted. And I was going to travel. I was going to, you know, do all sorts of different things. And money just came to me like I just hadn't had enough and that was all fine. And whereas now it's like, Oh, it's a big responsibility. I've got two children that I need to look after. I need to buy my own house, that kind of thing. Anyways. So rather than sort any of that stuff out, the sea was like beckoning me.
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Katie: Yeah of course
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Hannah: I mean, I have been doing these things too, but there was something about the sea and I don't know why or what, but people kept telling me to go join the Dip Club, which I did. Went and joined them that morning. And then I absolutely loved how I felt. So I just decided I would keep doing it. And what I wanted to talk to you today is what I've worked out why I think. It's happened. And it's all related to the divorce and this idea of the maiden archetype.
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Katie: Oh, interesting.
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Hannah: So I haven't told Katie any of this because I wanted to see how she responded live. Whether you're going to be speechless.
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Katie: All news to me, everybody.
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Hannah: So the order of events was I went to see Caro, who's been on the podcast and met her daughters, and she talks loads about being like she turns into a wild sea witch when she's in the sea. And her eldest daughters had loads of health issues, but she was the mermaid, so she felt physically better when she was in the sea. So during her like lockdown and through the book 12 Moons, she's talking about her experience in great detail. And it's really it's like super raw, but like. I guess it makes you feel like you're not alone. It's that whole thing of. Somebody else has been through this too. So I went to meet her and her girls, and I swam with the mermaid and the Sea Witch. And that was all really beautiful. And then straight after that, I went to meet Claire, who I'd never met before, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago from creatively conscious. And we had a, you know, a really beautiful chat together and then went home. And then the next - that night she sent me something. She was like, I don't know if you're interested in this kind of thing, but. Just thought you'd like to listen to it. So I listened to it the next morning, and it was this thing by Alice Allum. I'd never heard of her, but she's apparently from the Northeast and Claire loved her. And the whole video was about grieving the maiden and the maiden archetype. And it was my 21st day of getting in the sea and I was like, it was my first day without the kids. And I had a big plan of like writing loads of podcasts because we were going to be in the studio all day and I ended up just walking all day after I'd listened to his thing. So I'll tell you what, what she was basically saying. That like The Maiden is that I guess it's like the. It's the fairy tale ideal that someone's going to come and rescue you and that someone's going to come along and. And just make everything better. You don't need to do it yourself.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And I guess a lot of I mean, I don't have it with everything. I've definitely moved away from that when I was going through the divorce and, you know, things around the kids. But when it came to me and me moving on, I haven't grieved that bit of me that was like he was meant to save me and rescue me and look after me forever. Mhm. And it's around kind of money and how I earn money and stuff like that. So she was saying that. You basically need to identify where the maiden is showing up in your life and holding you back because she's too busy being like, I shouldn't be having to do this. I shouldn't have to go and buy a house. I don't want to fucking buy a house. I want somebody else to buy me a house and then fill it with nice things.
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Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
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Hannah: Can you relate to this?
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Katie: Yeah. So, like, I don't know. I've definitely held on to the idea that at some point some Prince Charming is still going to sweep me off my feet, and I'm never going to have to worry about money or having a job or any of that stuff ever again. But like the part of me that, um, I guess sort of deep down would like that to happen also goes against everything else that I feel very strongly about, you know, and how I want to have my own life and not have to do any of that. And actually, that's not my idea of happily ever after, I guess, you know?
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Hannah: Exactly
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Katie: But it's still there. There's nothing you can - I guess it's because we're taught that that will happen to us at some point as princesses.
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Katie: Yeah, I'm the princess and somebody's going to come along and save me. And there's obviously the male counterpart to this is how much pressure is there on a bloke to be like, Oh, right, I'm going to have to I'm going to go find a woman and I'll only be worthy if I'm rescuing her and if I'm totally taking care of her.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Katie: I must pay for the meals. I must pay for the holidays I've got to go out and earn. And I mean, obviously the opposite is I'm earning, so therefore I'm not going to do anything at home.
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Katie: Yeah, well, I know we definitely somehow end up on the bad side of this still, you know, don't we? But like, yeah, it's a really that's a really interesting thing to have to give up the maiden to say goodbye to that and put it to bed finally. I guess we all have to do that at some point and we don't. That's something that you should spend some time thinking about.
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Hannah: So that's basically what I did on my 21st day of getting in the sea. I went down to the sea and I kind of wrote out. What I was still pissed off about. And I didn't realise I was holding on to that. Yeah. And being like, it wasn't meant to be like this. I wasn't meant to have to do all this on my own with two kids. It was meant to be happily ever after.
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Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
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Hannah: So yeah, I was able to identify in like two key areas. Where it was. And then I just sat and, like, properly bawled my eyes out.
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Katie: Yeah, Yeah. I'm not surprised.
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Hannah: And I didn't think I was. I was just looking at the sea like, doo doo doo doo doo. And suddenly I was like, Oh, I really fucked off. Like, this is bullshit.
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Katie: Yeah, it is bullshit. Because when you, when you, I guess when you come to the realisation that that's never going to happen, like there is part of your sort of hope for the future that goes, isn't there? Like I think there was part of me when I was unemployed as well. I spent like sort of probably about a year and a half with with no job at all. And I've been sort of in and out of work since and worked part time as well. So not the full 40 hour week that a lot of people do. And I spent a long time giving myself a hard time about that and thinking about how I wouldn't be giving myself a hard time if I had a partner or kids because then, like, it's it's quite normal for the. Yeah, exactly. Quite normal for the mum to stay home and, and not work. Whereas like because I was just doing it for myself and for nobody else, like I wasn't, that wasn't good enough you know.
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Hannah: Mhm.
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Katie: And I thought like. It's okay to give yourself a break, to like, not work, to not work the full amount of time that you meant to like. Even if you don't have a husband and kids to take care of. Like, why is it only okay to have that, sort of, fairy tale like I live in the castle with the prince now, if you get married and have kids, you know.
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Hannah: Oh, yeah. And the other thing about that is, if you do have kids and husband at home and you're not working all the time, you are working all the time. Yeah.
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Katie: Of course you are. Yes.
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Hannah: Because you're then doing something else instead.
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Katie: Yeah, well, it's the unpaid work that we don't think about, isn't it? You know? Yeah.
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Hannah: Interesting. But the good news is that. Basically the process is you grieve that archetype and then that allows you to step into the queen archetype.
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Katie: Oh, I love that. Yeah.
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Hannah: So which is an interesting one because we always think of people like, say, Beyonce or Rihanna or like these queen people. But when you actually listen to their songs, all they talk about is love.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: All the single ladies. You should have put a ring on it. Yeah. Oh, fuck off. It's my hand. I'll put my own ring on it. Like, it's kind of partly empowering, but it's also a bit like. But we're still talking about love. Like what About all the multitude of other things that we do as women that are actually empowering have nothing to do with men? Yeah. And it's stepping into that bit that she talks about because basically she starts I mean, we're going to link to it and absolutely watch it because it's incredible. And I'm going to write to Alice as well and tell her that this whole thing has happened. But. She starts by talking about how if you want to be abundant from a financial point of view. You need to grieve the maiden because she wants somebody else to come in and look after her. Because it's funny to be, like, to even talk about that. That's like, pretty shameful. Like, I've got this part of me that really wants someone to come and rescue me, and it's even like
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Katie: I definitely d o as well.
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Hannah: My mum and dad like, So I went to see a house yesterday and I was like, I love it. And then came home and nearly had a panic attack as I was leaving. And I think it's because it wasn't so much that I loved it because I was thinking, Oh my God, maybe that's the place then it was more like I was stepping into. The feeling of I could buy this place, and that's stepping into being the queen. And that's scary. So it required a bit more grieving. And then I saw my mum and dad burst into tears and they were like, Oh my God, what's wrong? And wrapped me up in a cuddle. And I was like, I'm just really happy to be here. But again, I think it's that stepping away from they can't rescue me and they can't look after me anymore because I mean, they can, but just not in the same way. And I had to have a minute of being like, Oh, that's sad.
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Katie: Yeah
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Hannah: But I am strong and I can do all this other stuff. So yes, the whole point was to step into your. Queen archetype. You have to be in the flow of abundance. And in order to do that. It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank, you have to imagine you've got nothing, but you still have the ability to create.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And you still have the ability to receive.
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Katie: Yeah. And you still have the ability to look after yourself perfectly well on your own. You know, like, I guess this comes from the fact that as women we used to go from living with our parents and them taking care of us straight into being married and with a husband. And that's kind of still the expectation a lot of the time. Like when I came back from London, my mum would sort of like, I mean, she only joked about it, but it would be like maybe you'll meet somebody rich and then you won't have to worry about this, you know? Um, and so it's kind of no wonder that we feel like that a little bit, but like. We're perfectly capable of leaving our parents and making our own lives. We don't need a man or somebody to provide for us as part of that. Like, we can do it ourselves. Mm hm.
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Hannah: So this is where I get a bit confused because I'm like, I've talked a bit about loneliness recently in like a newsletter and got more response to that than I have about anything else. Um. Which we can tap on. But the thing I was going to say is. I get confused between. Is it my maiden that wants somebody or is it okay to still want to have someone?
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Katie: Of course it is. Well, that's an immediate answer to that, isn't it? But I think it is. It's two different things.
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Hannah: Like there's such an overlap between what does. So the Queen might want somebody in their life because it's fun and it's part of taking care of yourself. Whereas The Maiden would be like, I want you in my life to make me feel better and more whole.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And and it's which archetype are you using when you're scrolling through hinge looking for somebody?
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Katie: Yeah. And do you like have you got in the back of your head that this man might still be going to rescue you? Yeah.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Katie: And you've got to be careful, I guess, to, like, acknowledge that because it's not. Well, for me, it wasn't what I actually wanted. Like, there's no way that I would be happy in a relationship where the man just provided everything. Like I just wouldn't be because that's not who I am deep down, you know? Um, and I think even if I'd ended up in a relationship like that, I wouldn't have let it happen, You know, like, I would always still want to have a job and do things, you know, to make money.
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Hannah: Interesting. Because obviously I didn't. Yeah, because there's an episode called Fairy Tale. I can't remember which it is, but we can link to it.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Where I talk about all of that stuff and how guilty I felt that I was, you know, I didn't need to work, but I wasn't content. And it's because the Queen archetype was like, What the fuck are you doing? This is so miserable. Like, you're not using you're not being creative or receiving, which is really important for self esteem and. Want to feel like a queen.
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Katie: That's true. And it's not about money. It's about doing something with yourself. Yeah.
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Hannah: Yeah. And I think. I guess for me, I felt like it would be inconvenient if I did get a job, which it would, because then we'd need to hire and help.
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Katie: Well, of course.
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Hannah: To look after the kids. And then there was also a bit of me that was quite competitive about it. I was like, What's the point in even trying to earn because it would be a drop in the ocean compared to what my ex could earn, like earning potentials then. But it's not about that.
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Katie: Yeah, it's not. And like, you know, your part time job, even if it was like minimum wage, it's just as important as your partner's full time, sort of like big salary job, you know, because it's about self worth, isn't it?
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Hannah: Yeah. And if you need it, other people get will feel like a total queen being at home and managing the house and the kids and all that stuff.
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Katie: Or doing something for themselves that isn't necessarily paid as well. Yeah, you know, but I think we do need that. Like we although it's a lovely prospect, isn't it, just being taken care of. Like I don't think we actually are fulfilled by that a lot of us. Mm.
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Hannah: I think that's totally right. So I feel like that's what the sea's been trying to tell me. Mhm.
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Katie: Yeah. And you know there must be, I don't know, I'm probably going too far here, but there might be significance in 21. That used to be the day that..
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Hannah: Absolutely, I've spoken to Jambo about it.
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Katie: Because like 21 is the day that you get the keys to the house isn't it. In the olden days, it's the day that you become an or it used to be the day that you became an adult like that. It's 18, isn't it? But there's some significance to the age 21 as well.
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Hannah: Yeah, there is. The other thing about 21. So I was speaking to somebody about it on the beach just before I got in, and I was like, Oh my God, I had the epiphany yesterday, day 21, and she went, Oh, day 21 is the day that habits are set.
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Katie: Yes, it is. That's true.
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Hannah: And then the other thing about 21 is it's a sacred number. And like yoga circles. So like if you were going to do a mantra and you did it 21 times, that's kind of the time that you'd say that the magic might start to happen. So I messaged Jambo and I was like, what do you think about all this? And he was like, Well, first off, there's all I could hear when I listen to your message was about a goddess. Like it was going through his head. There's a goddess, a sea goddess that he like was look her up because there might be significance with her. But yeah, it's also just a sacred number.
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Katie: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense that it was day 21. You shouldn't have planned anything else for that day.
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Hannah: Well, I couldn't. I literally couldn't do anything. I did 20,000 steps just walking up and down, chatted with various people. People just started coming over to talk to me, including a little old man who was like, I'm just going for half a Guinness at that pub. And I was like, Good, nice.
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Katie: Yeah, good on him.
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Hannah: I wish I could do that, but I can't. Yeah. And then I got myself a doughnut for after going in the sea.
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Katie: Nice.
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Hannah: So I was like, I didn't fully enjoy the doughnuts. I didn't eat all of it, but I was like, That's what my queen wants for when I come out. And I felt cleansed and like totally amazing when I came back out. And then the other thing I remembered is, you know, the kids book that I wrote.
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Katie: Yes.
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Hannah: It's based on the Bobby Shaftoe nursery rhyme and as part of. The storyline. There's an evil sea queen.
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Katie: Right.
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Hannah: She's had her heart broken, so she turns evil.
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Katie: Oh, no, you're not evil.
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Hannah: And I'm like, Oh, my God.
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Katie: Is it you?!
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Hannah: Is it to do with the The Sea Queen? Because basically the Bobby Shaftoe nursery rhyme and it goes something like, well, it ends with he'll come back and marry me. Bobby. Bobby Shaftoe. But he never came back and married the woman. He married somebody else and then the original woman that wrote the song. Obviously she didn't write the song. She died of a broken heart, like three days after the wedding.
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Katie: Oh, my God. You don't have to die of a broken heart. Like, that's not like how things go. It's really not like. And isn't that funny that it's, like, deeply embedded in your story? The idea of the evil sea witch who turns evil.
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Hannah: Because she's had a break up.
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Katie: Because she's alone. Yeah. It's not going to happen. We're perfectly capable of being great and wonderful and happy sea witches.
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Hannah: Exactly. So now I'm like, oh, maybe that's the thread of the story. Maybe it's not her that's evil at all.
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Hannah: No, it's not.
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Hannah: And that's what needs to change.
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Katie: In fact, nobody's evil. She's just had a life.
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Hannah: She's not a witch. Actually, she's the North Sea queen.
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Katie: North Sea Queen. Yes. Okay.
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Hannah: And but I just thought that that kind of came to mind like, oh, that's quite significant that I've written a story about the North Sea and a queen, and then all these little threads have come together to be like, You need to grieve the maiden. Maybe she needs to grieve the Maiden.
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Katie: She does need to grieve the maiden. Maybe I need to grieve the maiden.
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Hannah: I think we all do.
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Katie: Oo this is all very interesting.
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Hannah: Isn't it? Well, I'll send you that Alice video because she does this amazing, like it's just her talking to camera for, like, ten minutes. But I was like, Fuck, that's amazing. Sorry, I've said the f word like a thousand times. Don't listen, Mum. Um, and I made notes as well, but yeah. So the maiden doesn't want to take responsibility for her life or take any action to create the life she wants. So whenever you're getting sabotage, it's the maiden.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Whereas the Queen leads the way. Shows up. And she's deeply in service and devotion for her higher purpose. So it's connecting to what your purpose is, which I think is to do with for me this like I've talked about it a few times recently, but around the whole idea of loneliness and motherhood, because I think there's a lot of people get stuck in this mother maiden thing and then they don't have the space to be the queen that they need to be.
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Katie: Yeah. Or they don't know where to go afterwards. When you've, you've followed the maiden path I guess, you know, like so far and then it's like.
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Hannah: You can till have all those archetypes within you so you can still be all those things, but maybe you still need, you might be feeling lonely because your queen hasn't got a space to flourish and connect with like minded people, which is you and me. Katie
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Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
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Hannah: That's what I'm wondering. So I want to do something which will launch on the birthday of the podcast, which will be free for anybody to join, but it will have things like where we can connect with each other on a, on a deeper level, I guess. And I want to do like guided meditations and um, maybe interview people within the community as well to talk about what's going on for them.
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Katie: That would be great.
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Hannah: Like, it doesn't necessarily need to be much as you know, I love them like CEO of whatever you can also be. What is your life today like?
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Hannah: Yeah.
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Hannah: Because that's you know what we're all living with day to day.
00:24:36 - 00:24:43
Katie: And that's what this is about, isn't it? People's stories, people's experiences. Yeah. Oh, great.
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Hannah: Do you like that?
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Katie: Yeah, I do.
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Hannah: I thought you would. Well, I shall show you the Alice thing, then. And maybe you can. I don't know. Get in the sea or something and grieve your maiden.
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Katie: I know. I think I need to grieve my maiden. Like, I think it's part of part of me that I haven't fully, um, addressed that I like have, you know, because it goes against. So like, not me. It's so I don't think it's in there, but it totally is because I think about it, I do think about it. You know, maybe someday I'll be rescued. Even though I really don't want to be.
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Hannah: I still think about it.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: I'm like, I don't need to be rescued by anybody, but there's a part of you that's like, I just can't be arsed.
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Katie: Yeah, no it is.
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Katie: you know, it's so tiring. I wanted to say that like, it's it's almost laziness, but it's not. It's just. I guess it's just easier to, like, lean into the idea that maybe you don't have to do anything and maybe just somebody else will come along and do it all for you.
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Hannah: The universe is going to bring me.
00:25:43 - 00:25:44
Katie: Yeah.
00:25:44 - 00:25:52
Hannah: The knight in shining armour. Maybe it will, but it will be once. I'm. Like fully Queenie.
00:25:52 - 00:25:55
Katie: And it's just not fulfilling enough. The fulfilling part is being the queen.
00:25:55 - 00:25:58
Hannah: Yeah. 100%.
00:25:59 - 00:26:00
Hannah: Cool. Good chat.
00:26:00 - 00:26:01
Katie: Yeah, it was.
00:26:01 - 00:26:02
Katie: Thanks, Katie.
00:26:02 - 00:26:03
Hannah: Yeah, no problem at all.
00:26:05 - 00:26:45
Hannah: All right, then. Thank you so much for listening. And I'll see you again next time for another episode of Happily Ever After with me. Hannah, It would be amazing if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you've got a friend who might enjoy this episode, please do pass it on for anything else. You can get in touch with me through Instagram @Mumsdays or by my website Mumsdays.com. And did you know that I've got a newsletter? So it's the best way to stay in touch and to make sure you don't miss any podcasts or any freebies or competitions that we're running. And again, you can sign up to that through the website.
