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Hannah: Welcome to Happily Ever After the podcast where we talk about life's big stories, from great sex to sexual trauma, breakups and breakdowns. Icky secrets and happy endings. It's the stuff that makes us human. And boy, do we cover it all. I'm your host, Hannah Harvey. I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at Mums Days dot com. That's M.U.M.S.D.A.Y.S dot com. I would be very grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it means more people can find the podcast. And I also really, really, really love hearing from you, so please contact me through Instagram @Mumsdays with all your stories of life and any thoughts you might have on the episode or even questions you want answering. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
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Hannah: Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah Harvey. This week I have the second part of my interview with Joanne Major. She is the managing director of Major Family Law, who is, in fact, my divorce lawyers. She's also put together an amazing site called Splitting up.com, which is just an incredible free resource for anyone who's starting out in their divorce. And this week, we start off where we left from the last episode, which was episode 33. But as a reminder, please do not use Joanne's answers as legal advice and always seek advice from a lawyer before you make any decisions. So without further ado, we'll launch back into the conversation with Jo, where I'm asking her questions on behalf of you, lovely lot. And we're starting off with a question about refusing to sign divorce papers. So is it possible to refuse to sign divorce papers?
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Joanne: Um, these days, it only actually needs one person to say that they want a divorce for it to go through. So that is one of the big changes now. Refusing to sign a divorce application that's made all that, that, that simply sort of slows the process down because you can't stop the divorce. But you certainly by refusing to sign papers, can delay it because the applicant and the divorce would then have to make applications to the court to prove that the other party had received the documents. You would have proof of service that they knew about it and they were deliberately being uncooperative. So there's certain applications that can be made to progress it if somebody is being stubborn or difficult about it. But that's one of the main changes now that it's really one person can issue an application for divorce. But realistically, even under the old law, people didn't really defend divorces.
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Hannah: Yeah, you'd have to be pretty.
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Joanne: I think, you know, people might put up some resistance to start with, but I guess after a few months, if there's no point hanging on, if somebody absolutely is determined that the marriage is most definitely at an end, it was an inevitability, I guess, in most cases. So in the past you could refuse for sure to sign the divorce whether or not that actually prevented people from issuing divorce proceedings before the new law came in. It might have done if someone said, in a marriage, I'm not going to sign. So no point issuing, I'm not going to sign to it. Maybe that might have that might have slowed the process down. Whether ultimately that changed the outcome and somebody eventually did get divorced. I mean, obviously, I don't know. But under the new law, one party can just issue the application for divorce.
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Hannah: I think that's really fair and right. Like if somebody wants to leave, they shouldn't be controlled by what another person wants. So yeah.
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Joanne: It's difficult. You obviously - I've seen both sides of that. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's difficult.
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Hannah: Of course, but at the end of the day, you don't want to stay with somebody who doesn't want to be with you.
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Joanne: No, I mean, that would be the logical answer, but sometimes.
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Hannah: The heart doesn't work like that.
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Joanne: So some clients have difficulty coming to terms with that. Understandably.
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Hannah: Yeah, of course.
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Joanne: Um, so to me it's a bit of a, it's a bit it's about the timing. So for example, what I said to you earlier about being on the roller coaster, some people have already started that roller coaster because they decided that's what they wanted. So they're halfway through the journey. Yeah, sometimes it takes people six months to catch up. Um, so they're the ones maybe who would be resisting and find themselves bereft. They weren't expecting it. It's come out they didn't want to end the marriage. It's all come. It's all quite catastrophic. It's all hideous.
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Hannah: Yes.
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Joanne: And so it's about the timing of normally within a period of time, that person is able to come to terms with it. But every person, every client is different. And it's about the different timings and people's minds that I think can cause a lot of trouble, a lot of difficulty, a lot of personal stress and anxiety.
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Hannah: Mmm, I was when I spoke to a mediator, she kind of drew me this graph which kind of started up here and went down and then came back up and she said, That's grief. So she said, like the person who's maybe not filed the divorce is maybe up here still going down this hideous grief thing. And you might be over here coming back out the other side and you're both trying to communicate. Yeah. And it's just. It's just.
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Joanne: It's the roller coaster, isn't it?
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Hannah: Yeah. It's just so difficult.
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Joanne: Same thing, same analogy. The roller coaster that, you know, the party who made the decision maybe even a year before they issued an application for divorce. They may have already finished the journey before the other person started it. Yeah. It's very difficult.
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Hannah: It is very difficult. That's helpful because I hadn't ever really thought of it like that. I always assumed there was like a control thing of like, No, I'm not going to do it. But it's it's not that. It's about the human condition and grief and heartbreak.
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Joanne: Yeah. But sometimes it is that as well. Having done this, having done this for 27 years, I've come across just about every scenario you could ever imagine. So yeah, sometimes it's that. But I would say more often than not it's coming to terms with a very difficult, life changing event and people cope in different ways. Some people cope better than others, and that's no criticism of that individual. It's just human nature. Some of us cope better with difficulties and challenge than others.
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Hannah: Yeah, exactly. It all depends on when you feel things like it can take years before you suddenly go, Oh my God, that thing happened and it comes out in other ways.
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Joanne: Yeah, for sure.
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Hannah: Interesting. Okay. Is it possible to divorce without going to court?
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Joanne: No. So in the same way that a marriage has to be properly carried out and registered. So the ending of a marriage obviously also requires an official process. So that's making the application at court. But in terms of the divorce process, you don't have to attend court. So it's possible. Your question without going to court. So you do have to lodge the application at court. So it requires the court process, but you don't If you're dealing just with the process of divorce, you wouldn't be expected to attend the court. Does that make sense?
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Hannah: I think this is more because I didn't realize this until I went through divorce, that you apply to court for your divorce. That's one thing. And then if we're going with the train analogy, that's one train. The next train would be finance. If you can't agree finance, you may have to go may have to go to court. And the third one is children.
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Joanne: Yes, but that's not really part of the same train. That's not really part of the train.
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Hannah: It's a different train
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Joanne: Exactly. Because children's applications are dealt with under the Children Act. So that's actually quite separate to divorce and the finances. Sometimes issues can be interrelated in some ways for sure. And so if you've got issues regarding you, you might have an issue that you want to have the children to live with you and that might impact on a financial settlement. So sometimes a financial claim might be put on hold depending on the outcome of maybe a contested application on behalf of the children. And often it isn't. But yes, so the children is another train, you know, a completely different train. So think of very much the divorce and finances as two trains running in parallel together. The children train is a completely separate one. Again, it's not even connected to those two rail tracks.
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Hannah: But you can find yourself in court if a full custody related issues. Yeah, for.
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Joanne: Sure. Oh gosh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So it's really when when people talk about going to court and I think what they mean by that or maybe what they don't understand is. Very rarely would you ever have to go. If I can't think of any example where you would really have to go in terms of the divorce process. Yes, it could be possible in relation to financial matters. If you can't agree terms by consent or somebody is hiding information or there's an inequality of arms and someone's being downright unreasonable and you think, well, you know, what's what's what's on offer here isn't acceptable. And again, with regard to the children under the Children Act, if there are problems, issues that need to be resolved, for sure, you may need the intervention of the court to make the decision as to what the arrangement should be in respect of the children.
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Hannah: And that's completely separate to the finances that you wouldn't go to. Yeah, exactly. So you could find yourself in court three times, once for the divorce, once for the finance and once for the children.
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Joanne: Sure. But the divorce process is a court. But you don't physically have to attend to it.
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Hannah: Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So a couple last two questions. Yeah. The first is how are assets divided, if you can possibly cover that in a shortish answer.
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Joanne: Okey doke. Well, all assets of either party that the parties have are are available, I guess, to be shared on divorce, although there is a distinction sometimes between. Well, not sometimes there is a distinction between marital assets and non marital assets. That's a whole new a whole new discussion. What's the difference between marital and non-marital, non-marital being perhaps an inherited asset? So the starting point, I guess, is to figure out what are the marital assets, what are the fruits of the marriage. And the law is generally starting with the presumption of equal sharing. Uh, but, but that's very much subject to the needs of the parties. So, and the needs of the parties would you would look at things, for example, at the age of the parties, the age of any dependent children, the health of the parties, What if one party wasn't able to work and the other could work through ill health? The earning capacity of the parties. Inequality is an earning capacity because career career decisions made in marriage. So these are different. It's these factors. There are actually a law called a Section 25 factors. It's these factors that essentially define need. And because people's needs can be quite different, that's what is contentious. Um, if it was formulaic, if it was just 50/50, that's it. Quite frankly, Hannah, I wouldn't have a job.
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Joanne: So you come at it from. No. So you come at it from the point of view of it's 50/50 and
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Joanne: Your starting point.
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Hannah: Then all these other factors then get taken into consideration.
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Joanne: When I'm, when I'm giving advice to clients by way of an initial free consultation, I explain think of it a little bit like a seesaw. You start off in the middle at 50/50, but then some of these other factors might move that seesaw up or down. So someone might have made a significant, unmatched capital contribution to a property at the outset of a short relationship so that that factor of contribution may be relevant to depart from the established principle of equal sharing. And again, for example, somebody might have the needs of 2 or 3 young dependent children and the children might be very young. They're not in a position to raise a mortgage because they might not be working if they've got responsibilities for the children. That's another factor that might change things. So as I say, there's a number of factors and some people may have more factors than others. So if you think of it, as I say, as the seesaw analogy, your seesaw can go up or down depending on how many factors you may come back at 50/50 for sure. So, you know, if you're both 35, no children, married for five years, both teachers, both working full time, earning the same. And there's a house. It's probably pretty straightforward. It should be dealt with by an order, by consent, very straightforward. But you could deal with a very different set of circumstances. If there's an age inequality between the parties, a wife maybe who's 60, husband, who's 50, wife, who's maybe had ill health, had a problem for five years, husband who's maybe successful, um, consultant and they might still be three children at school. Um, the wife might have had to give up work because of ill health, so she might be needing to draw down early on her pension. Um, there could perhaps be an inheritance that came following the death of husband's mother two years before the ending of the relationship. So it can start adding in all sorts of layers of complexity. And those are the cases that you have to dissect and give clear advice as to the the range of options that are available. It isn't it isn't straightforward. And because there is a broad discretion that exists at the court and the discretion exists because of how do you define need. And I guess everyone's interpretation of what someone needs rather than wants is quite different. So my idea of what I need and what you need might be very different. So that's why I guess, speaking to a lawyer, you are hearing from the lawyer what what the judges, what their perception of need is based clearly, obviously, on the law and case law, because I deal with so many clients and they've got their own view about what the right outcome is, understandably. And I sometimes say to them, I'm sorry, I can't just tell you what you want to hear because that isn't an outcome that I believe the court would endorse.
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Hannah: Mhm. And a lot of it I seem to remember comes down to needs of children as well.
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Joanne: Yeah, for sure.If there are children of the marriage. Yes of course. The housing needs of any dependent children as one of the first considerations of the court. Absolutely.
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Hannah: Mhm. Which leads us nicely onto the last question, which is to do with do you have any advice for when there is children involved? It's quite a broad question that was put to me, but um.
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Joanne: Yeah. Well it may sound simple, but parents really should try and cooperate for the welfare of the children. Um, a broken marriage doesn't mean that you're failing as parents, but you still have that chance to do it well. But some of the worst cases, obviously, are where children are very much used as pawns between two warring parents. Um, it's very difficult in those circumstances. My advice would be to speak to a lawyer who might give you a range of options mediation to try and see if you can build a communication. Um. So advice when there's children involved. I mean, my advice would be, I guess, you know, try and think of the bigger picture. Try and think that. You know, you don't want to you don't really want your children to be affected by what you and your spouse have gone through. And often spouses will say he was a bad husband or she was a bad wife, but they were a good parent. So try and hold on to that. That could be the most positive thing coming out of the marriage. I often say to clients it wasn't all bad, surely, because you've got two wonderful children, so try and look at the positive, not the negative. And if you can look at the bigger picture and think, Hey, maybe one day it'd be really good when our children graduate or get married to sit on that top table, albeit on different ends of it, but at least be in the same room together. The good work to achieve that outcome is done at the time of the divorce. Um, and so yes, it's about trying to keep an eye on the bigger picture and don't drag the children into that dispute between the parents. But it's easier said than done.
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Hannah: That's so difficult.
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Joanne: One thing that so I've been reading again recently, it's a book called Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed. And the thing that when I read this statement, I realized I'd read it previously, like ten years ago or something. But basically what she says is the most damaging thing a child can hear is something negative about their parent, like their mother or their father. So that's always stayed in my head that it's so that you've just got to be so careful that you never slag off their their dad to them. Yeah. Like, yeah. And they pick up on all of these little intricacies that's going on all the time. So just really keeping that in mind, even when it's very difficult.
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Joanne: Very much. At all ages, you know, especially teenagers who are going through their own battles, aren't they teenagers, really tough for them. I mean, I'll share with you I'll share with you what one thing that was said to me, um, by a child, uh, which I've shared to many clients over the years, and it was a child who I knew, whose mum and dad were separating and he was pretty upset, understandably. And Mum and Dad were choosing to part ways. And very tragically, about a year later, uh, one of the parents died unexpectedly. And he was just a child. He was 11/12 at the time. And because he was someone I knew and he said to me and it was so wise, he said to me, it was really tough when Mum and Dad were separating. He said, But nothing will ever be the same as knowing that I'm never going to get to see my dad ever again. And it's just that sort of thought, isn't it, as a parent to think, okay, this is, you know, I don't like my spouse, whatever, but the concept of knowing you're never going to see your parent again, it's just devastating for a child. So why the hell would you put your children through that trauma in a divorce? Because none of us know what's coming, do we?
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Hannah: No.
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Joanne: So sometimes I'll say to clients, you know, think about that child's words. That was tough. But obviously now knowing he's never going to see dad, that's, um. It's a terrible situation.
00:19:24 - 00:19:35
Hannah: Yeah. So, yeah, I think anything to the kid, you really have to. Obviously, as long as they are safe and you know they are safe, that's the only time I would say that you really need to stand up.
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Joanne: And there are some safeguarding cases. Absolutely. Where children are at risk. And those are the cases. Absolutely. Where precautions and things need to be put in place and safeguarding measures. Absolutely. So there's always an element of children who are very vulnerable and need always to be protected. But in other cases, I would just say. Try to think about your child's needs rather than necessarily your own.
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Hannah: Yeah. I read an amazing thing from Children's Services about looking at it from the child's perspective. So what I'll do in this podcast, in the show notes, I'll link to that if I can find it online again, because I think that's a really helpful if you're like, I hate my ex to just read this and be like, okay, this is about my child and this is, you know, this is the way to deal with it. So Well, thank you so much, Jo. That has been really helpful. And I feel like we could go on for another hour at least.
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Joanne: No, don't worry. There's just so much. It's just. Yeah, there's always something
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Hannah: Yeah. You've been learning this for 27 years, so we can't put it in an hour long podcast. But yeah, everything that Jo has mentioned we will link to in the show notes and of course if you need any further legal advice, you can contact Joanne.
00:20:53 - 00:23:10
Joanne: Yeah, I mean, as I say, we do free consultations Hannah, so if anybody wants a free consultation just to sort of discuss a set of circumstances or whatever, or a friend or family member, you know, just get in touch at inquiries @ Major Family Law dot co dot UK. But if you're just simply looking for advice, information gathering at this stage, then that's the reason why splitting up.com was created as a sort of go to page of helpful information. And that also has links to experts and people who could help you. So it's a combined page. It's not a law site, it's just information. It's an information platform. But also it can take you to people who can help you if you need it. And and also with splitting up.com there is also a nice well I think it's nice podcast as well where people share their real stories real journeys of their own circumstances. Just a snippet is only 4 or 5 minutes. Um, they anonymize their name understandably and sometimes they change slight details of, you know, the sexes of the children or whatever just to protect the children's identity as well. But the podcast is sharing real stories and journeys. And then after the podcast we then dissect some of the things that they discussed and provide information about it. So it could be, for example, a disputed children's application. One of the podcasts is a lady who left the English jurisdiction to go and live in Spain, and the application was objected to by her ex. So she explained how she did it and what she needed to do. And then following her story, we then discussed if you want to make an application to live outside of the jurisdiction, what are the things that you need to think about? Well ahead of seeking the court's permission, because preparation is key to success. You need to undertake the preparatory steps first. So advice was given concerning the preparatory steps needed. And then the other expert that we spoke to was a good friend of mine José who's a Spanish lawyer, and he was explaining what the Spanish side of that potential international relocation was in the Spanish courts. So quite helpful information. So the podcasts, if people like listening to podcasts, some of them are quite, quite good.
00:23:11 - 00:23:31
Hannah: No, I think they're great. I was listening to one and afterwards I was like, Oh, I really need to get my will sorted. It's like little things like that where you're like, Oh, I'd forgotten that bit. And yeah, so it's wonderful. And of course if anybody needs a sympathetic ear, I am available too, and you can contact me through Instagram, but thank you so much, Jo. That's been amazing.
00:23:32 - 00:23:33
Joanne: Yeah, well, thank you, Hannah. Thank you for having me.
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Hannah: You're welcome. Bye.
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Joanne: Take care. Have a good day. Bye bye.
00:23:38 - 00:24:01
Hannah: Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time for another episode of Happily Ever After with me, Hannah Harvey. It would be wonderful if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you've got a friend who might enjoy this episode, then please do pass it on. For anything else, you can get in touch with me through either Instagram @Mumsdays or through my website. Mums' Days dot com.
