Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah Harvey. I have an extra special treat for you because I am chatting with Danielle Barbereau, who is a Divorce Coach and author of the book, After the Split.
I first met Danielle a year ago after she was recommended to me by my mediation solicitor, and she supported me through some of the hardest bits of my divorce, namely battling it out in court! Hi Danielle!
Danielle: Iâm very pleased to be here with you today Hannah.
Hannah: Iâm thrilled! iâve been wanting to do this ever since i started the podcast so Iâm thrilled.
My solicitor had said, âask Danielle for a compatibility callâ and within about a minute I knew I had to work with you. You were so reassuring and instantly made me feel hope during a particularly traumatic time which is such an amazing skill to have.
So to get us started, how did you get into Divorce coaching? I didnât even know they existed until a year ago.
Danielle: I didnât know they existed until I did it, in fact it didnât exist when I started 12 years ago.
I was a coach, I was coaching people and then one day someone said to me âcould you speak to my friend, her husband has left her and we donât know how to help her. And I said âwell I can speak to her but I have no idea if I can helpâ. And I always remember this moment because I went to this womanâs house (I used to at the time, my diary was not full) and the woman opens the door and she was in her dressing gown and I said âWoah! What are you doing?!â And she said she had no energy she couldnât so I said âShower, make up and then we start workingâ and I started working and from that moment I knew without any doubt at all that thatâs what I wanted to do forever more. And Iâve been doing this for over 12 years and nothing else.
Hannah: Thatâs giving me goosebumps! I love that! And did she get dressed and put on her make up?
Danielle: Oh yes I would not have worked otherwise
Hannah: You were like âNo! this is what we doâ
Danielle: Actually I remember she was actually a lawyer (not in family) and her head of firm so it just shows that when you are going through something like that it doesnât matter who you are what profession you are, you get floored and bruised badly. Itâs not a question of logic and how you deal with it, itâs much more complicated than that.
Hannah: So why do you think divorce is so hard? Why does it floor us so much?
Danielle: Well, you donât get married with the thought that itâs going to end. This is your intimate relationship. Relationships are based on trust and respect, you donât ever think that youâre going to lose that. But of course thereâs a whole range of reactions.
I was thinking the other day that Iâve had over 1100 clients working one on one and what is fascinating about divorce is that Iâve never had the same story twice and that to me is so fascinating and people are too. And itâs incredible what people go through.
But you have a range of things, an easy divorce would be two middle aged people who agree that theyâve reached the end of the road, the children have left the nest and theyâve decided to separate. To the other side there is what youâve mentioned, when it goes so badly that you have to go to court to try and resolve. A judge is going to resolve your divorce.
So of course if it goes badly in particular itâs incredibly hard especially if you are going to be blamed for it. Because letâs say your partner has made your life completely impossible, one day you realise that you canât go on like this, and you are the one that initiates the divorce. Well not only do you have to go through this but on top of that, you will be blamed. Easy for your partner to say âoh well you see she started the divorce, she wanted the divorceâ, and they portray themselves as the victim there. Then not only are you going through the divorce but on top of that thereâs those very unfair emotions involved.
Hannah: So you mentioned there that thereâs a range. Youâve heard every story in the book Iâd imagine.
Danielle: But there will be more! Every client is a new story indeed.
Hannah: There will be more! So every situation is unique but are there common threads that your clients struggle with most? Like common things that, yes everybodyâs got a different story but, I know people who have had amicable divorces but itâs still been hugely challenging. So yeah what Iâm asking is, what do your clients struggle with most? The thing you see most that you help people with.
Danielle: A great deal but the two top ones, actually three top ones are;
Children. When children are involved, youâll have them thinking that youâre not going to be with the other parent and the guilt of that and then there are these emotional expressions like âI donât want my children to have a broken homeâ. Well what is the most broken? Two households where at least there is some calm and harmony or one household which is extremely toxic? So thereâs all these things at play.
Sometimes when people have young children they decide to wait till later but actually teenagers and young adults are extremely affected.
Then thereâs money is something that some people have a great deal of or in fact not that much, businesses together, then itâs incredibly complicated. Because you have one pot and sadly this has to be split into two so sadly thatâs complicated.
And also I have to mention fear. Because a lot of my clients, even if they donât really know it, are in an abusive or coercive relationship and by definition when you are in one of those relationships you donât know that something is not normal and that itâs no way of treating people. Because what is happening is the result of years of drip, drip, drip. Comments, criticism, put downs all this sort of thing which makes somebody lose their confidence and self esteem.
And also letâs say that youâre in a violent relationship, you have to be concerned about what happens the moment I leave and expose my partner. What he (more often than not) really is.
So all these things are not surprisingly extremely difficult and I feel that my role is often.. I used to think it was to help people survive, of course it is because I know what helps people. But really more importantly it is about helping clients get clarity. Because they think one second âoh Iâm going to divorceâ the next second âno Iâm not because heâs been nice todayâ and they drive themselves absolutely crazy no longer knowing what to do, not trusting their judgement and for me thatâs the most important thing I can do for a client. First of all help them gain clarity and then once this is done I can support them through something that is very difficult.
Hannah: So does that mean sometimes the clarity is.. actually we can stay together and we can make it work?
Danielle: Yes but rarely. 1100 clients or more and I can probably think of 3 or 4 who have decided and successfully stayed together. I think once you start having these doubts, thereâs a reason for it and it becomes very complicated.
Hannah: I always think itâs a bit like The Truman Show. Like how do you know whatâs reality and what isnât depending on your circumstances and once you start to get that glimpse of âIâm not sure this is actually rightâ. Itâs hard to go back from that.
Danielle: Yes exactly. Almost impossible. And neither should you (go back). When this is happening, you realise that youâve been in something pretty toxic and you should not be in that situation. There are some people who spread toxicity around them, they become abusive. And itâs nothing to do with the person whoâs on the receiving end of that, theyâre being made to feel like itâs their fault. Unfortunately there are people like that, theyâre damaged and they damage other people. Itâs hard to recover from that, itâs absolutely possible but itâs hard.
Hannah: But you need to be out of the trauma before you can start recovering.
Danielle: Totally, you cannot do it when youâre in the middle of it. And then when you see your partner or speak to your partner, even if you feel a bit better, thereâs a bit of piece and a bit of harmony, the moment you speak to them or read a text or get a phone call itâs a step back and it takes time to recover from that. It gets easier and easier with time because one thing you need to do is realise what is happening and observe it rather than get swallowed into something which is toxic. These people thrive on oxygen on the fire, they need the oxygen of an argument or provoking something. If you donât play the game and if you stand back, it becomes more difficult for them to do that and you become stronger than them as well.
Hannah: Is there such a thing as an easy divorce.
Danielle: When I hear amicable divorce I feel âmm.. really?â but easy would be if the couple had reached the end of the road, the end of a chapter, letâs close it then we can move on and it happens. But it is quite rare because itâs the rawness of the emotions involved in a divorce, itâs very very difficult. Letâs imagine for example that thereâs another party. You sense that your husband is having an affair except he doesnât admit it (that works both ways by the way, women do the same). Itâs difficult because you feel humiliated. You deserve to have the respect of a real explanation but sometimes youâre never going to get that and if youâre not, itâs hard, very very hard. And you feel that the other person is having your life. Itâs complicated.
That happens a lot when women are menopausal as well. Itâs a stage in their life which is really difficult to handle.
Hannah: And you might get an explanation but it might not be the truth.
Danielle: Exactly, and you deserve the truth. Because more often than not, the explanation can actually be a blame for you. It was something you didnât do or something you did. You deserve to hear them say âDo you know, Iâm really sorry but Iâve fallen out of love with you, Iâve met somebody elseâ. That would be at least respectful, not easy to hear but at least itâs an explanation. Often itâs going to be turned round, youâre inadequate, youâre this, youâre that. Itâs nothing to do with what you do or donât do, but the person wants out. Once the person wants out, thereâs nothing that will keep them in the marriage. You donât persuade anyone to love you.
Hannah: Do you find that it can be the other way round? Like somebody has maybe cheated, but they regret it and they want to keep the marriage going?
Danielle: Yes, it happens and it depends on how much youâre into review to the other partner. For example if your partner does not know youâve had an affair but youâre determined to keep the marriage going then my advice, although it goes against the grain, is keep your own counsel because youâre introducing something that is really extremely complicated to process. Never the less, this is rare. Once a person has had an affair, the only time they regret it is when their partner says âno way, Iâm outâ and then they realise what they stand to lose. But itâs very rare for someone whoâs had an affair to suddenly think âoh no what was I doingâ. Itâs rare, it happens but itâs rare.
Hannah: Iâm gonna go off topic here but I would love your thoughts on this because as Iâm entering the dating world. This is post long term monogamous relationship, Iâm coming up to 40. What Iâm finding a lot is people having either open marriages or are polyamorous.
Danielle: Oh my goodness, well Iâm not sure Iâm qualified to answer this, Iâm not a dating coach and actually I spend a great deal of time saying to my clients not to get involved in anything until youâre really ready. In other words until theyâve processed the whole thing. Why? Because when you date, you open yourself to rejection. Thatâs part of the world. And after being extremely hurt, youâre not able to handle more rejection. So you need to have gotten back on your feet before you can. It is true that on the website thereâs loads of damaged people or people who are barely out of a relationship. Their marriage will end one day, the following morning there they are putting up a sign.
But what you describe is even worse and I have to admit, Iâm very innocent in that and didnât realise that was the case! How difficult to navigate that. Never the less, itâs a numbers game isnât it, and you may meet so many people who are not the right people and suddenly there is a genuine one. We all know people who have met somebody online and it has been successful. But itâs not only working through itâs also timing, you have to be ready and they have to be ready, the others are time wasters.
Hannah: Iâm kind of using it as a way to explore what I actually want going forward so Iâm chatting to some people who are polyamorous mainly to see how it makes me feel. Like âIs that something Iâd be interested inâŚ? No I donât think it isâ.
Danielle: Nooooo. You deserve better, you deserve exclusivity from somebody but I agree with you when you start dating. I hate the word âjourneyâ I canât stand that expression but actually itâs a process isnât it. You find out by doing that what youâre prepared to take, what you prefer or what youâre not wanting at all. My advice would always be make a list of what is really important to you and I would say actually not sharing with anybody else would be very important.
Hannah: Top of the list!! No sharing. Sharing is not caring in this instance.
Danielle: Not in this circumstance at all. I think what youâre describing is totally normal, itâs a process, but eventually you have to think âthis is important to me, and I want somebody..â I donât mean âI donât want to be going out with a bald manâ, I mean please, look at the person for who they are. But once you know, youâre much more likely to find that person. Itâs an interesting thing isnât it, itâs almost like once youâre clear, itâs easier to find someone.
Hannah: But itâs that getting clarity thing again, thatâs so important. And I still donât know if I know what I want. And I think having children made it more complex because Iâve had relationships in the past where theyâve met the partner and it was just not quite what I wanted and it was very quickly back to being very domestic and kind of more work than if itâs just me and my kids.
But then the other extreme is that itâs me and my kids during the week and then Iâm this single person at the weekend and I love that but it does make the transition between the two quite extreme.
Danielle: But it is exactly that, it is a transition. It has not been a very long time since you left your marriage and it takes time. And I would say just enjoy, enjoy trying to meet someone, go for a drink, go for a coffee, enjoy that. Donât think âoh this is going to be my life partnerâ. This is unlikely to be the case, just enjoy and see whether you want to see them again.
Now youâve spoken about children and I have to say, your children make dating complicated for a woman especially if she has the caring responsibilities for the children. Itâs very rare that children will welcome a partner, very rare. Of course with time. That is a very difficult dynamic and everybody is trying their best but itâs difficult. I was in the same situation, I got divorced probably 30 years ago now, itâs ridiculous to think about that. My children made it so difficult to the point that I had a few relationships and then really had to wait till they were away, university and the rest of it.
Hannah: Nancyâs only 3?! Iâll be waiting forever.
Danielle: What you can do is have a relationship where you donât introduce the children straight away. And when youâre sure, then you can. But the children, however much we love them, in this circumstance, they are a complication. And for a partner itâs not that easy. They might have children themselves that they donât see and feel guilty about that, itâs complicated. But as long as you understand that itâs complicated, but itâs not unsurmountable.
Hannah: So I was very excited to hear that youâve got a online course that youâre launching very soon.
Danielle: I am launching it very soon, thank you for asking Hannah. I just felt that Iâve been doing this for so long and with so many clients that I thought âI have something to say, I canât just say it one to one with a client, thereâs only so many people I can see. I could just put something down which would help peopleâ. Because although as we discussed, divorce is unique, but there are things that help people to recover and I could really clearly put that tidily in 6 modules. In 6 chapter headings, the first one being âto understand what is happeningâ and then âto start taking controlâ. Thereâs a whole process which actually I follow with clients to help them recover and this is what the online course is about. And Iâve tried to put a lot in it and thereâs also a worksheet which will become a workbook later. Because for me the process has to be worked through. You cannot say âwell Iâll buy this course and in two weeks time Iâll feel okay.â Because you need to work through things. And to me this reflection is really important and this is what makes you grow.
So the course is both me explaining things through videos but then after that I give you some things to think about for your own circumstances because sadly not everybody is my client but you can purchase a course. But I think itâs good! The feedback Iâve got from the 5 or 6 people who have tried it is overwhelmingly positive. So I think itâs going to be useful.
Hannah: I definitely think so. What I think struck me about the whole idea of it, like you said, is that everybody has got a unique story and sometimes you can get stuck in your story where as when youâre doing something like this, you know youâre moving to something positive at the end. You can follow your guidelines, make it relevant for your situation but youâre not staying stuck in your story.
Danielle: And thatâs a really important aspect of the course or of any recovery. You cannot stay there because often that involves very negative emotions which actually only affect you. Feelings of revenge or jealousy, yes at first I get that, but not if that defines you afterward. So what I tried to do I think is try to give some perspective. You have to gain perspective on the relationship and that doesnât happen overnight. But as you say itâs a normal human reaction to get stuck in bad habits or not to see that there are alternatives.
Hannah: Yeah so I feel like this kind of pulls you out of that and gives you hope. Because itâs called âEmerge and Recoverâ ⌠from a painful break up. And the other thing that I think is perfect is that youâre running it so it starts on the 21st November, itâs a live run through because youâre going to do Q&Aâs each week.
Danielle: Indeed, every Monday evening at 6pm to answer questions.
Hannah: Yeah so you can do the module. Get your questions then go online and speak to you about them.
Danielle: Exactly right, making sure that youâre anonymous, I wouldnât want people to show their face or name, to be careful to protect yourself. The stories will be unique so therefore there could be a question that is unique but actually itâs going to help other people and what has struck me when Iâm working with clients is that they find it incredibly reassuring to know that they are no on their own. They are not freaks. Itâs just that something happened to them but itâs not a bad thing, itâs normal to be confused, all these things. This is where itâs important to take some perspective.
Hannah: And to take some control.
Danielle: Essential. It starts there and when youâre going through divorce, a break up you have not chosen, itâs easy for you to think that you have no control at all over the situation and you look at it in terms of loss. Whereas I work with clients in trying to get them to regain some control. Sometimes itâs very small steps but itâs amazing the difference it makes. And often this is also about setting boundaries, there are things that are acceptable and things which are not.
I had a client a few months ago, her husband had left her for another woman, he would come back every morning to have his shower in the house.
Hannah: Eurgh!
Danielle: Yeah! So you know it was a way of checking up but also asserting the control that he should not have. And I said to the client âno, no no!â. He has lost the right to treat this house as his home. He will shower at the other place thank you. And there are many examples of this during the year. Many! And the moment you start asserting, itâs about self esteem itâs about standing up for yourself, it makes a huge difference. And it gets easier to do it all the time as youâre doing it.
Hannah: Yeah like little baby steps, but each one is empowering.
Danielle: Exactly right, thatâs exactly what it is. You progress and then thereâs a set back, thatâs normal too. Nobody progresses in a straight line. Have I done three steps forward then two steps back? Yes thatâs normal too except that it will be less and less profound and affecting less and less progress. One morning youâll get up and think âI donât want him backâ. Thatâs quite a step isnât it. And itâs all these things, recovery is never a straight line. Itâs normal to have set backs.
Hannah: Yes, and I think if people have your course, thereâs that kind of reassurance that, if youâve got a set back, you can step back into the bit of the course that relates to that thing.
Danielle: Absolutely
Hannah: I think I would have found that really reassuring because obviously I had you at the end of a phone call but thatâs not necessarily accessible to everybody because a) time and b) money, all those kind of things. Where as this means you are in their pocket whenever they need you which I think is so lovely because it was just such a huge support for me.
Danielle: Thank you Hannah, thatâs exactly the spirit of the course really. Yeah you can dip back so it is a useful tool but itâs also real support because people feel so lonely when theyâre left with this.
Hannah: Yeah you feel like youâre the only person on the planet going through it.
Danielle: People you know! Like Iâve probably got a client on your street. The idea of the weekly calls is to let you know that there are other people in the same boat.
Hannah: The other thing that I was going to say that I love about it is that youâre running it over the Christmas period. Because obviously Christmas properly sucks when youâre at the beginning of the divorce process, youâre not together and youâre navigating the joyous period and everyoneâs having loads of fun and blah and you just feel like you wanna Bridget Jones it out.
Danielle: The first Christmas especially, you get taken in by the imagery of Christmas, the ads on TV, everybody happy in the family. Obviously this has a very loose connection with your reality but I do remember my first Christmas on my own and itâs very difficult when you donât have the children, I was not prepared enough. My advice would be to think about your day, what is that going to look like. And make it special for you in a different way, start new traditions but donât get caught. Everything is closed, everybody is seeming to be having a good time but you, well this is the time to do something special for you. I think that would be my advice for the first year especially.
Hannah: And get your course so that they can speak to you in between Christmas and new year!
Danielle: I will not speak on Christmas day! Iâll be back around on boxing day.
Hannah: Youâre going to do a special one between Christmas and New Year.
Danielle: I will be doing a special one and of course people can email me any time and then I can respond to that. Often the questions that people have are often what other people would have. But I will respond to emails on the one to one definitely. Itâs important.
Hannah: Oh well thatâs amazing. That is really amazing to have that kind of access. Thatâs been really interesting! I was going to finish off with your top tips for people starting out on their divorce journey and Iâve used the word âjourneyâ.
Danielle: The divorce journey!!
Hannah: The divorce process to a great future. I donât know..
Danielle: Absolutely. Because again everything is unique itâs difficult to say general things but what comes really strongly for me first of all is, be informed! Know where you stand, for example with the house, the children. Sometimes fear can come, people will say âyouâll be destitute, you wonât see the kidsâ. Thatâs ridiculous! So your lawyer will be able to explain that. So be informed!
I think also donât feel that you have to give an explanation to anybody. People almost want gossip sometimes, youâre not a subject of gossip. Deflect that if you donât want to give information. For example, some people say âOh I heard that you and James are getting divorcedâ. Deflect that with a very simple sentence. Just say âYes, weâre going through itâ and donât get drawn into having to give explanations to anybody. Except for the ones who are in your support system. Who is your support system? Who is always there for you? Who makes you feel better when you speak to them rather than drained? These people are really really important, be sure about that.
And frankly, it will pass, itâs a terrible time, it hurts so much but this will pass and you will get better. Everybody, every single one of my clients has got better. Nobody gets stuck there. And often if I bump into people or they email me several years down the line they say âdo you know, the divorce was the best thing which could have possibly happened to meâ because when you do that, you really have to look in yourself, your core values and what matters. It actually makes you grow into a better person. And then you move on positively. I can assure you, literally no exception to that, it will pass.
Hannah: Thank you so much Danielle. See! Wasnât that a lovely treat everyone.
Danielle: Such a pleasure!
Hannah: Honestly and huge good luck with the course I know itâs going to be a resounding success. Thank you so much!
Danielle: The pleasure is all mine I assure you.
