ï»żPodcast 10 - Decluttering with Cath Hindle
Hannah: Hello and welcome to another episode of Happily Ever After with me Hannah Harvey and I have got a very special episode for you today because I'm talking to one of my very best friends, Cath, who supported me every step of the way through my divorce and we've known each other a very long time haven't we Cath.
Cath: We have yeah, a very long time, ten years in fact.
Hannah: We were just working out that we did antenatal classes together with our first children and now they've just turned 10.
Cath: Just turned 10 yep.
Hannah: So one of the things that I find really helpful when I'm feeling particularly bad is to declutter. And Cath is a professional declutterer.
Cath: Luckily for Hannah I'm a professional declutterer.
Hannah: Let's say it's not my natural instinct to declutter.
Cath: No
Hannah: I like to collect things and I think it's actually a family trait, we keep stuff, there's a big thing in my family about 'don't waste anything, you have to keep it, just in case in 10-years time you need that button', you have to hold on to it.
Which means there's a lot of stuff in my life.
I remember the first time you came to help me, it was pre-divorce and we just did my kitchen. When you left I was like 'oh my god I'm so accomplished, now I can go on and do anything' and remember going and sorting out a whole bunch of other jobs off the back of it.
Cath: I do think it's a little bit like a muscle, the more you do it, because the results are sort of quite instant. Especially if you're a person who responds well to clarity and clear surfaces and organisation even if you've not necessarily got in you to do that naturally. If you respond well to it, the sort of hit that it gives you means that a lot of my clients carry on and do other stuff off the back of one thing. They want that sort of feeling of calm and clarity that a good declutter and organise gives you.
Hannah: So in my family, we definitely collect things and it seems to clog up in spaces and isn't that kind of what Feng Sui is about, creating smooth flowing spaces around you. Because energy can get stuck, I think, in stuff.
Cath: Yeah. And I think what you do, certainly what you do Hannah, in your space, you have things that you love or you're naturally attracted to because you have slightly magpie instincts don't you. Certainly around stationery and pottery and maybe nice teas and coffees and those kinds of things. But also you crave that sort of minimally clear stuff, so you pocket things, you sort of hide things away in little drawers and little cupboards and you pile stuff up so when you open them, you have this feeling of overwhelm.
Hannah: Oh my god you wouldn't even wanna see my cupboards right now in my bedroom it's like.. hide everything away!
Cath: That's the stuff that makes you potentially feel a little bit bad about yourself and that's what I can help you unlock.
Hannah: That's so fascinating. Don't you think that we do that emotionally? We all have little pockets in our head of stuff that we like 'I'm going to put it in a cupboard, and I'm gonna pretend It's not there.'
Cath: Yeah totally. I often find with clients that it's 50% actual physical decluttering and 50% decluttering of the mind because everybody is emotionally attached to their things. If you have, for example, stuff belonging to your mum who died a few years ago and you've put it away because you don't want to deal with it, there's both a physical and a mental element of sorting through that and deciding what you want to keep and what you don't.
Hannah: So it helps process
Cath: yeah definitely
Hannah: So one of the things I really wanted to talk to Cath about and why I've asked her on, is because you helped me about two months after me leaving my ex, preparing my house for sale and it took us a whole week. For me, I can't really remember it. I remember pockets of it but I remember having to heavily lean on you to get me through that process. And thinking afterwards 'I don't know how you do it'. Can you tell me what you remember?
Cath: I remember it being quite cathartic and very bittersweet. If you've not explained to people that listen to this before, you had a beautiful house didn't you, that had been 18 months in the process of renovation that I'd seen all the way through. There was a baby in the middle of that building dust and all kinds of other things as well and at the point, and sort of ironically I guess, the point at which you decided to leave was the point that this house was coming to it's most beautiful that it's probably ever been so it was an absolute joy and privilege to help create what look like a beautiful home. The sad bit about it was that it was no longer your home. That's what I remember.
I have different levels of jobs, I help clients from social services that have been recommended to me through to clients that live in lovely houses in Northumberland and so every job is different so it was a very pleasant job on a superficial level. It was beautiful weather, the sun was shining and we had the windows cleaned and everything is glinting and the whole house just felt beautiful and lovely but at the same time there was this sort of overwhelming melancholy in that it was the end of something and we need to get this sold so that you can get on with your future.
Hannah: Yeah, the day that the estate agents came to take the photos was the day that the extension was finished.
Cath: Literally, a man screwed a tap on then a bloke turned up with a camera.
Hannah: So I never got to use that kitchen! It was a huge process getting the extension done because it was grade 2 listed so we had to go through all the hoops of getting all the permission and then lockdown happened and we literally had builders living in the house to get the glass front on the kitchen sorted. And then we were styling it and making it look beautiful but at the same time it was like '.. I'm never going to use this kitchen'.
Cath: And we were moving stuff from different rooms. But we also did a lot of decluttering that week didn't we. And I think what I was talking about in terms of unpacking stuff - I remember just in your bedroom going to things and you very quickly saying 'no I don't want that, I don't want that'
Hannah: I was quite decisive at that stage.
Cath: You were! But you were very decisive about the stuff that you know has been given to you in your marriage.
Hannah: Yeah, reminders!
Cath: You were at that point I think where you were two months in, you were like 'No, I don't want this stuff around anymore' so it was an easy job in that sense wasn't it.
Hannah: Yeah, we had to be pretty brutal because we had a time frame, and I'd already moved out by this point. So it gave us that opportunity to go through everything in the bedroom and be like 'what's mine, what's staying, what do I want'. And we were able to sell a few things which was a nice bonus obviously at that time.
Would you say that when you're working with somebody at that stage in...
(I feel bad calling it grief because obviously no one has died, but like, I do think I was going through some of that process although maybe not as hard. But you know the death of a relationship is still..)
Cath: No you definitely were! And I mean, I can't remember what the saying is about how many stages of grief there are but there's the sadness, and the anger and recovery and all that kind of stuff.
Hannah: Denial
Cath: Exactly!
Hannah: I think I was still in denial when we were doing that.
Cath: I think you thought there might be a chance at that point didn't you. To recuperate or rekindle, but you were angry about the situation that you've been left in as well so there were lots of mixed emotions going through there.
I work with clients at lots of different stages of grief and you've got to be careful around that you know, the number of people that get in touch a week/a few weeks after somebody has died or they've moved out or and there's something about wanting everything to go back to normal quickly and trying to regain or grasp onto that sense of normality and you have to tread quite carefully around that because you don't want people to have regrets.
Hannah: Now, I was saying to you earlier, there's a few things that I haven't sold and the emotional weight from this has been removed because we are now in an amicable place, my children are happy, I feel much more stable, I know where I'm going so it doesn't have that power over me.
Cath: So you have that, but then a few stages on you have people that are absolutely paralysed or handicapped by stuff because it has an association with something that they once loved. They don't want to get rid of it for fear that it dims or tarnishes that memory.
That's where a lot of the hard work comes in in terms of, if you feel that, say, I don't know if you kept all of your husband's socks who died 8 years ago - âactually, what was his favourite pair of socksâ, keep that pair, but you don't need all of them. That kind of stuff. And what could you do with this space that would honour that memory, that would help you to move on. So, there's sort of two extremes really. There's people that want to get rid of everything (and you were definitely in that phase at that time), and then there's other people who want to hold onto things because they want to remember what they've lost.
Hannah: That's the big difference then, with comparing grief, you just can't. Because I think when a relationship's ended, both sides are angry and you're sad that it's ended but there's so many other elements around so you're wanting to cut ties and get rid, whereas you accumulate if you've actually lost the person.
Cath: What I do isn't rocket science, it's not a dark art. The most important skill I have is the ability to listen. I genuinely don't care if people get rid of things or not, I want to put people in a space where they have things in their homes or in their lives that they love and that they use and anything else is really superfluous to that. I think not having an emotional connection - I mean with you, I did have an emotional connection because I knew what you'd been through and I wanted to support you - But obviously the majority of my clients aren't my very good friends that I've known for 10 years. So I don't have an emotional connection or feeling about should or shouldn't keep. I genuinely just want them to get to a place where they feel happier.
Hannah: Yeah, I do think what you do is a dark art though...
Cath: I think plainly listening is a dark art, I think it's a really really underrated skill.
Hannah: Yeah, I agree. And being able to empath what somebody's going through and help them do what they are trying to achieve.
Cath: Yes, I think empathy is a blessing and a curse in that sense. I used to have a big stupid job and the reason I left my job because I was slightly too empathetic so I took on people's problems and made them my own. And you could argue that I've gone straight into a career that then facilitates that again so I am very careful about working out what's my job and what's my role as a human being. And being quite careful about those boundaries. But like I say, I do think that listening and empathy - people go, oh you must be organised, you must be minimal, you must be this, you must be that, I'm not sure I'm any of those things, what I AM is I'm able to listen and I can understand people and read people.
Hannah: I mean that and you are pretty decent with an organising situation.
Cath: Yeah, I mean obviously, it helps if you're going to be a declutterer and organiser.
Hannah: I keep trying to get Cath to hire me and she's like '... just no, no' and I'm like, 'Come on, I can come with you, I'll understand people and help.' and you're like 'you get sick after about an hour'. Don't I, I'm like 'can we have a break now'
Cath: Yes.. you totter off and get a coffee don't you.
Hannah: ...Yes
Cath: you have a look at your phone,
Hannah: have a little chat, 'I'm just gonna put something on instagram'
Cath: Yeah, that kind of thing.
Hannah: Alright well this has been very interesting and I thought it would be nice to end on your top tips. So if, say, somebody in my position now.. Sorry, in my position 2 years ago, because it's exactly 2 years now since we spent that week in the big house getting it sorted. What would your advice be for sorting through some of the aftermath of a divorce?
Cath: There's definitely something about trying to articulate or understand how you are feeling and recognising that that will change over time. So, having a think about what you're getting rid of in rage and what you're getting rid of because you genuinely don't love it or use it.
The number of times I go and see someone at whatever stage they're at and they're like 'I've made a start ,I've bought some storage boxes' and I absolutely blummin' hate storage boxes because they help no one and all they do is give you an excuse not to look at stuff and not to deal with stuff, because you put stuff away, you store it, you don't look at it, it just creates clutter. I think there's something around, people like buying stationary where they can write lists. The big thing is start small, start with the drawer, start with something just to see how you feel around it. And don't buy stuff to aid that process because you're actually adding to your clutter and not getting rid of stuff. But I think that sort of processing of feelings and understanding that your feelings towards your stuff will change and flex and develop over time is probably the most important.
Hannah: Yeah, sometimes I guess it's part of the process. Shedding a layer.
Cath: Yeah absolutely.
Hannah: Especially if you're moving! The less stuff you take with you the better.
Cath: Yep. And also you were going through a period where you didn't really know where you were going to live full time did you. We've worked together a few times over the years and each time, I feel like we've refined your stuff. And that's very much based on the person that you are at that point.
Hannah: Yeah!
Cath: So you know, when you moved into the first house that you moved into after you'd left your ex it was like creating a beautiful home. And that's what was important to you and having beautiful things around you and whatever.
Hannah: Soft furnishings, I really wanted them didn't I.
Cath: Yeah, there were a lot of cushions going on werenât there.
Hannah: Blankets and fluffy things, it's that sort of earthy element, homely.
Cath: To wrap you and cushion you! Where as now, you're sort of emerging aren't you. You're feeling more confident, you've got direction, you're on good terms with your ex, all that kind of stuff. So your home life now is reflecting that and you're shedding the stuff that you bought to give you comfort in the early days. And that's what we did last time I worked with you.
Hannah: Thank you so much Cath for coming in. That was really interesting because I think some of it, we haven't even talked about ourselves. You just kind of get on, don't you. And thank you for two years ago! And being there for me. The number of times you were coming in and I was like in a puddle on the floor and you'd just be like 'come on, we've got to go sort the library'.
Cath: I know but that's the thing isn't it. There's times, as you well know, in the last 10 years that you've been there for me too soâŠ
Hannah: Well, there you go.
Cath: All good
Hannah: Aren't we good.
Cath: Aren't we good. Thanks Han!
Hannah: Thanks Cath!
